Homer quote
 

From Lynn's class with Homer:

Homer said, "I see great hazards in 'between the shoulders' because it tilts your head. And, you can't tell whether you've swayed or tilted your head."

His words, not mine.

How can you not tell if you have swayed?

If I can't tell if I've swayed or moved my head, I must have ZERO body awareness. When I sway, I feel more pressure and stretching in my right hip.

I also think the statement "I see great hazards in keeping the head still, because people keep it too still which can lead to a reverse pivot" could be just as valid.

IOW there are extremes either way, the best procedure, in my mind is somewhere in the middle. If you can keep your head precisely centered and perform the 3 imperatives, do it. If you cannot, find something that allows you to perform them.

I don't want to fight, I just think there are 2 sides to every story.

I don't like the term "Reverse Pivot" :)

(as Mathew's post above was edited from the original, I have edited mine to make for comparative friendliness)

Oh. Why do you say that Mathew? :)

What else would you call it?? :)

?? :):)

10-14-b
 

The pictures with Slide Hip Turn(10-14-B)... LOOK like what many would call a Reverse, but it must be useful, if done corrrectly. I think C. Montgomery probably uses this, and very well.

Now... 10-14-D is actually called a Reverse Hip Turn. Do any of you employ this in short shots?

Ain't Necessarily So
 

Lagster,

The photos referenced illustrate the Slide Hip Turn (10-14-B) of the first five editions -- that is, Slide with no appreciable Turn.

Photos 10-14-B #1 and #2 do an admirable job of illustrating this Component as described.

Then, with the publication of the 6th edition, Homer Kelley dropped a bombshell:

The definition of 10-14-B changed to Slide with a Delayed Turn.

Unfortunately...

There was no change in the illustrations. :(

And now, in the post-humous 7th edition, the Slide Hip Turn (10-14-B) has replaced the Standard Hip Turn (10-14-A) as the Hip Turn Variation in the Drive and Drag Loading Basic Patterns. Which is okay -- it emphasizes 'Parallel Pivot' Motion (3rd Edition) -- except that...

The 'Slide with a Delayed Turn' remains illustrated as a 'Slide with no appreciable Turn.'

Botttom Line:

Homer Kelley never intended the 10-14-B photos to represent the Hip Turn Component for the Uncompensated Stroke Patterns of 12-1-0 and 12-2-0. The Pivot is the Rotor of the Stroke. It generates the necessary circular motion and should be so illustrated.

A pivot is an act of turning around a point and reverse means going in the opposite direction.

The shoulders nor the hips should be turning around in an anticlockwise(right handed) direction on the backstroke....

Ok well what about the slide in the hip action going in the reverse direction - hence reverse hip action ...nope...

According to most sources - its a slide coupled with a head moving forwards....

Sliding - well thats going in the direction you should be going anyways - just going too far.... that can't be 'reversing'

Ok so what is the next point you could possibly make - the pivot point reverses forward in its direction ... but that makes me confused - how would then concentrating on a stationary head make you 'reverse pivot'... Think about it...

Thank you for your more descriptive answer.

You are right....this is dumb.

Geometry...Not Opinion
 

Great post, Mathew. And from the perspective of a man disciplined to rendering geometrical relationships, not opinions.

I got a "collegial" jab, I feel honored. :)