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Losing The Point Of Compression -- The Lob Shot

Quote:

Originally Posted by tongzilla

Indeed the Impact Points for Vertical Hinging in 2-C-2 remains intact during Impact Interval.

And thus there is no loss of the Compression Point during Vertical Hinging (Clubface Layback Only) until the Clubhead passes through Low Point. Then, as the Clubhead moves parallel to the ground, the Clubface tilts under the Ball, the point of Compression is lost, and the result is the floating, ballistic trajectory of the Lob Shot.

They May Be Bitin' -- But I Don't Care!

Quote:

Originally Posted by MizunoJoe

Lag is described but the only mention of HOW it is obtained is a single sentence about dragging a wet mop through impact. The problem is that a wet mop can be drug through impact incorrectly and in such a way that when switching from a wet mop to a golf club, lag won't happen. Someone who doesn't have lag and having read the above posts, still won't.

So the "jig" isn't up.

Hmmm...I've decided I don't like fishin' that much anyway. Stay tuned.

Anyone can be taught to develope a swing that has leverage into impact. You must first learn proper grip posture aim and pivot. Than you work on linkage, width, and sync. of club head arms and body. Lag or leverage is a byproduct of doing things right before impact. You can not simply develope leverage into a incorrect set up and pivot.

Kind Regards, Gary

Quote:

Originally Posted by tongzilla

tongzilla is very excited about the revamped forum and is poised to make his first contribution. I hope Yoda won't smack me with his dowels for butting in :o .

As phillygolf has elluded to earlier, there are two Secrets of Golf. I will give an overview which hopefully will spark off some discussion.

1) Sustaining the Line of Compression (2-0).
One can imagine this to be a shooting a pool stick through cue ball. The straight path the cue takes as it goes through the ball is the Line of Compression. The point where the stick striks the ball is the Compression Point. This is a Linear Force, which simply means the force acts in a straight line.

In golf, the Clubhead is moving in a circle, hence we have Angular Force. But our objective is to produce the same effect as a Linear Force with the orbiting Clubhead. We achieve this by having the contact point between the Ball and Clubface welded at the same point from Impact to Separation. All while the Clubhead is moving in an arc.

This can only be achieved by using Horizontal Hinging.

Hitters using Angled Hinging does not have the Clubface and Clubshaft rotating around the same center (in fact the Clubface has no center), and hence cannot maintain the same Compression Point through Impact. So you better find a good way to compensate for this inferiorty if you're a Hitter!

2) Clubhead Lag (6-C-2)
There are actually three types of Lag: Pivot Lag (Body Poit for Swingers and Launching Pad for Hitters), Accumulator Lag (6-B-1/2/3/4) and Clubhead Lag (6-C-2). So that angle between the Clubshaft and Left Arm everyone in the Golf World talks about is merely Accumulator #2 Lag. Contrary to popular belief, you can be using a Sweep Release and still have lots of Clubhead Lag.

Clubhead lag is that heaviness you feel through Pressure Point #3 as Club changes direction. The Longitundinal Center of Gravity of the Club (i.e. the Sweetspot), resists that change due to its inertia (i.e. mass). The Sweetspot doesn't want to move, but it has to. This stresses the Clubshaft and produces that heavy feeling which you try to maintain all the way down, never even thinking about releasing this heaviness. This feel may be cultivated by dragging a wet mop from Release to Follow-Through.

Tongzilla - excellent post!!! Really good stuff! Very thorough and explained extremely well!!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martee

Now 2-C-0 (Linear Force) does elude to '..perfectly centered action -- or a compensating manipulation', however it discusses that the Physical Center not be the center of the ball or gravitational center, just the point of compression. "In other words, the original contact points of the Clubface and ball must remain in contact throughout the entire Impact Interval. This is possible only if the motion--or arc--is uniform..."

So I guess what I am saying I don't track with your logic regarding Horizontal Hinging. In fact what would you say in regards to Vertical Hinging?

And I am a bit concerned that it appears that Hinging is the Key to Sustaining the Line of Compression, I thought there were some other elements that were of equal if not more importance.

Martee...

Angled hinging has an uncentered linear motion. Tong is simply saying that in horizontal hinging, the clubhead and clubface are rotating around the same center - and therefore, the arc is uniform...as opposed to angled hinging.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tongzilla

Clubhead lag is that heaviness you feel through Pressure Point #3 as Club changes direction.

Another way to explain the heaviness Tong speaks of is to simply say feeling the clubhead's weight. Just a thought.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MizunoJoe

MJ...

I think the more pertinent point is, if you drag a wet mop through impact, you will be feeling the mop's head (is that grammatically correct) weight through impact...and will not throw it. Sure...anyone can throw it...but realistically - will they????? So...try to duplicate a similiar feeling with a club. Either slow it down or shorten the stroke until you can feel the clubhead (lag)...

Whatcha think???

FUN, FUN THREAD EVERYONE! Good stuff!!! Very informative and thought provoking from everyone. At least it is for me!

-Patrick

Death, Taxes, and Throwaway

Philly wrote, "Sure...anyone can throw it...but realistically - will they?????".

You can bet on it!;)

Patrick you are so right.

The pulling of a ‘heavy’ clubhead (mop head too) by the left side and the pivot allowing the right hand to drive upon it gives throw-away a slim to none chance in the hands of a G.O.L.F.er.

Heaviness is Heaven- ness. :p

Sustaining the Lag- one dirty floor at a time.

6b

Quote:

Philly

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martee
Now 2-C-0 (Linear Force) does elude to '..perfectly centered action -- or a compensating manipulation', however it discusses that the Physical Center not be the center of the ball or gravitational center, just the point of compression. "In other words, the original contact points of the Clubface and ball must remain in contact throughout the entire Impact Interval. This is possible only if the motion--or arc--is uniform..."

So I guess what I am saying I don't track with your logic regarding Horizontal Hinging. In fact what would you say in regards to Vertical Hinging?

And I am a bit concerned that it appears that Hinging is the Key to Sustaining the Line of Compression, I thought there were some other elements that were of equal if not more importance.

Martee...

Angled hinging has an uncentered linear motion. Tong is simply saying that in horizontal hinging, the clubhead and clubface are rotating around the same center - and therefore, the arc is uniform...as opposed to angled hinging.

Well I read Tong's write up to specifically state HORZ hinging and sustaining the lag...

Quote:

This can only be achieved by using Horizontal Hinging.

Hitters using Angled Hinging does not have the Clubface and Clubshaft rotating around the same center (in fact the Clubface has no center), and hence cannot maintain the same Compression Point through Impact. So you better find a good way to compensate for this inferiorty if you're a Hitter!

I think this is wrong in so much as saying
1. cannot maintain the same Compression Point through Impact

2. compensate for this inferiorty if you're a Hitter

What I am reading based on this write up is that Hinging is the key to sustaining the lag. In fact it Hitters using Angled Hinging are using an inferior component application and yet in 12-1 that is what Kelley recommends.

If this is true, then what is the compensation a hitter must adopt in 12-1 to overcome this inferrior component application?

And then we have vertical which has a centered motion and yet of the three hinging application this is probably the least likely one that sustaining the lag is a priority with based on it application in the golf stroke to produce shots.

Vertical Hinging does have a centered motion hence the Line of Compression is sustained just like Horizontal Hinging (and unlike Angled Hinging). However, Vertical Hinging is not the "Ideal Application" because of its extreme Layback Clubface Motion and manual manipulation required to produce it.

Notice I did I not say anything about "Hinging is the key to sustaining Lag" in any of my posts. I kept the concept of sustaining the Line of Compression independent from the concept of sustaining Clubhead Lag. I would add that these ideas should be kept theoretically and conceptually separate, even though they are inextricably linked in the pratical world.

Here is a fact:
The same compression point cannot be maintained during the Impact Interval when using Angled Hinging (the typical Hitter's Hinge Action). There should be no debate about facts. Ceteris paribus, the ball will not go as far. Alas! Everything is not equal!

Sorry I mistyped in the second reference it was meant to be line of compression as I starte at the beginning of the post. You made it clear that hinging was your focus regarding sustaining the line of compression, that is what I am not sure is correct, maybe key is too strong of a word, but that is essentially all you addressed in your intial post.

BUT you stated

Quote:

tongzilla wrote...Notice I did I not say anything about "Hinging is the key to sustaining Lag" in any of my posts. I kept the concept of sustaining the Line of Compression independent from the concept of sustaining Clubhead Lag. I would add that these ideas should be kept theoretically and conceptually separate, even though they are inextricably linked in the pratical world.

Here is a fact:
The same compression point cannot be maintained during the Impact Interval when using Angled Hinging (the typical Hitter's Hinge Action). There should be no debate about facts. Ceteris paribus, the ball will not go as far. Alas! Everything is not equal!

Fact, well I would like someone to not use the TGM book or statements and get some real references. Cause I know the description of longitudal center of gravity in defining the sweetspot plane is often incorrectly stated.

So if you have some time, I would be interested in the references.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MizunoJoe

Philly wrote, "Sure...anyone can throw it...but realistically - will they?????".

You can bet on it!;)

MJ, that was great! Death, taxes, throwaway!

But...seriously...have you ever seen ANYONE throw a mop in the context we are speaking - meaning, throwaway? Offplane, maybe. But actually throwaway the pressure? Hmmm.....

I think your point is simply that dragging a wet mop doesn't necessarily translate to 'sustaining the lag'. Yes?

MARTEE...

Because there are a bunch of concepts being mixed here...can you be specific to your contention? I am with you - meaning, for myself, I cannot learn or visual or comprehend [i]anything[/]i unless it is exact! So...for my benefit....please...be exact.

Any where is my damn video??? I paid 30 bucks last year...and nothing!!! ;) ;) ;)

Patrick