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I didn't realize that. Tracing an Open Plane Line with a Square or Closed Stance does indeed "Look" like Swinging Left. :salut:

The long and short answer

In addition, Hogan played with clubs that were longer than standard (not sure if this been brought up previously).
A Shorter man with longer clubs that Traces an Open Plane Line.

Misleader of the Band

Quote:

Originally Posted by drewitgolf (Post 81005)

A Shorter man with longer clubs who Traces an Open Plane Line.

Uh, yes, that would look "left".

:shock:

Thanks, Drew. When one is mired in the nebulous world of Position Golf -- as opposed to the precision world of Alignment Golf -- these are the not-so-little details that can (and do) mislead.

:salut:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoda (Post 81003)

Let's not forget that Ben's typical shot was a Fade. He got that Fade by tracing an Open Plane Line, i.e., a Plane Line aimed left of the target.

Normally, the Stance Line is parallel to the selected Plane Line (1-L #19). But Ben often stood Square or even Closed to the Target Line (and thus well to the right of his Open Plane Line). He did this to promote an unrestricted Backstroke (10-12-B).

I am not relying on hearsay. Nor am I being fooled by misplaced camera angles. I've stood behind the man on the practice tee of the Augusta National and watched him hit Fade after Fade from a Closed Stance.

Most observers saw the obvious: he was "swinging left" of the Target -- a motion made even more apparent because of his Stance Line. What they didn't see was that he was deliberately Tracing an Open Plane Line.

And this is how he produced his Fade.

:salut:

What'd happen if you added Angled Hinging to this and the (low within the range of ) Elbow Plane .....with all of the loss of club head travel Angled implies? What'd that look like? Just another alignment?

Great stuff today!

Much like ole Lee Buck. Film him on the target line and he appears to be swinging "left". Film him more to the right on his baseline, he looks more like a "slinger". It IS all in the book if we have a good guide. Thanks Guys!

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.B.Left (Post 81008)

Hands well "inside" with the Club more "out front"?

Kind of like this?

:shock:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoda (Post 81003)

That makes sense enough to me..........This is the procedure (open plane tracing from closed stance) I employ but never thought about it like that.

The Honourable Company (Edited)

Pardon the interruption, but I've added substantially to my Post #216 and wish to reprint it here. The edited portions are highlighted in red.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoda (Post 80992)

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:salut:

Thank you.

Please continue!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoda (Post 81003)

I'm not relying on hearsay. Nor am I being fooled by misplaced camera angles. I've stood behind the man on the practice tee at Augusta National and watched him hit Fade after Fade from a Closed Stance.

Just one more reason why your opinion is so worthy and credible:salut:

CP and CF motions - Mac O'Grady

Lynn asked me to reply to the general discussion regarding CP (centripetal force)
and CF (centrifugal force) motions per Mac O'Grady. Here goes:

By way of explanation, I "managed" Mac's schools for six and half years (2001 - 2008 ). I attended over 30 schools and was part of the teaching team for these schools. I was also, at the time, one of two people allowed to use the MORAD
logo for my teaching.

CF motion uses a lateral shift of the hips beginning the downswing, with the left arm angled about 20 degrees inside to the target line at the point the left arm is parallel to the ground (know as Position 5). The right elbow moves toward the right hip. Then the right arm begins to straighten when the club is parallel to the ground (P6). The hips "elevate" to impact. Flight of the ball is predominantly a push to push/fade, although any flight is possible via club face position. Generally, it is always a higher flight than a CP motion.

A CP motion is an outward force - the rotation of the left shoulder is more level to the ground - horizontal (Mac believes the left shoulder position is monitored, not the right shoulder). The hands are brought predominantly outward, rather than moving downward, and the left arm is parallel to the target line at P5 (see above). This rotational motion is continued through impact. This motion produces a lower trajectory, and a left to right ball flight (generally).

I can tell you that a CP motion is a body driven motion - very little to no shifting of the hips, and a lower finish vs. the CF finish.

The key point with regard to other posts is that both motions are body and/or left arm driven - the right arm is not flimsy, but does not play a major role in either swing model.

At least according to Mac....