Originally Posted by O.B.Left (Post 89758)

Before we go any further . I need you to explain what you mean by the "I need more than cuz so and so said so". Is that in reference to the quotes from Lynn and Ted that I posted above?

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket (Post 89774)

word....book references.....tie it together.

Originally Posted by O.B.Left (Post 89790)

Of the ten trillion usable component patterns alluded to Homer outlined only two in the later editions of the book. He chose brevity for obvious reasons. Two uncompensated basic procedures. In the various audio tapes however he covers more ground. Much more ground , given the questions of his students and what he termed the "mysterious vagueness about the differences between Hitting and Swinging".

Hitting and Swinging are not defined by Hinge Action , or Startup procedure or to the discussion at hand , Startdown procedure. They are defined by their respective physics in Release . Only. Simply put you can Push or you can Pull in Release but do not attempt do both, they are incompatible. You can Pull in Startdown and then Push in Release.

To your request: For book reference on Pivot Power used in combination with Right Triceps Hitting . See
2-M-4 BODY POWER .

Homer wasn't a big fan of it he being a proponent of the uncompensated swing. 10-19-C in combo with a right arm throw 10-20-B does requires compensations. But they are not incompatible , mutually exclusive .... like Simultaneous and Sequenced Release for instance. If there is such a thing as "switting" this would be a good example , the attempted use of mutually exclusive components .

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket (Post 89816)

Not trying to be a dingdong on this .... you gave me 2-M-4....

2-M-4 BODY POWER Inertia can hold the Left Arm against the chest while the Body Turn is accelerating it and Momentum can then sustain it and come out with the Feel of Left Arm Power. See 2-K. To clear the fog, consider Pivot Thrust as Body Power blasting the Swinger’s essentially inert Left Arm into orbit toward Impact. Or, as supplying the initial acceleration of the Hitters loaded Power Package so the Clubhead can be endowed with Pivot Speed PLUS Right Triceps Speed. Study 6-B-4, 6-C-0, and 7-12 in this connection.

This don't distinguish much for me.....

It don't tell you HOW...the key word is "OR"....does the "OR" cause an inference to be drawn that the pivots for Hitting vs. Swinging are DIFFERENT? Or the same? If they are different then HOW?

You are also telling me that Hitting and Swinging are defined (sounds almost exclusively to me) by the "physics employed during release"....that sounds good but what does that mean and what does it look like? What components are different? Does the sweetspot necessarily move different? If so how?

Homer seems to define the distinguishing characteristics of the procedures in 6-H-(E&F)....some seem pretty much mutually exclusive in my mind....

E. Associate the following with “Hitting” (10-19-A). See 7-19.
1. Angled Hinging (7-10)
2. Simultaneous Release (4-D-0)
3. Grip Rotation (7-2)
4. Single Wrist Action (10-18-C-2)
5. Active Right Elbow (7-20)
6. Fixed Lag Pressure Point (“10-11-0-3”)
7. Radial Acceleration (10-19-A)
8. Axe Handle Technique (6-F)
9. Slow Start Down (6-B-1)
10. Angle of Approach (2-J-3)

F. Associate the following with “Swing” (10-19-C). See 7-19.
1. Horizontal Hinging (7-10)
2. Sequenced Release (4-D-0)
3. Plane Line Rotation (7-2)
4. Standard Wrist Action (10-18-A)
5. Active Left Wrist (7-20)
6. Rotating Lag pressure point (10-11-0-3)
7. Longitudinal Accerlation (10-19-C)
8. Rope Handle Technique (6-F)
9. Quick Start Down (10-23-C)
10. Arc of approach (2-J-3

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket (Post 89816)

2-M-4 BODY POWER Inertia can hold the Left Arm against the chest while the Body Turn is accelerating it and Momentum can then sustain it and come out with the Feel of Left Arm Power. See 2-K. To clear the fog, consider Pivot Thrust as Body Power blasting the Swinger’s essentially inert Left Arm into orbit toward Impact. Or, as supplying the initial acceleration of the Hitters loaded Power Package so the Clubhead can be endowed with Pivot Speed PLUS Right Triceps Speed. Study 6-B-4, 6-C-0, and 7-12 in this connection.

This don't distinguish much for me.....

It don't tell you HOW...the key word is "OR"....does the "OR" cause an inference to be drawn that the pivots for Hitting vs. Swinging are DIFFERENT? Or the same? If they are different then HOW?

Originally Posted by O.B.Left (Post 89824)

You asked me to find book support for my contention that Pivot Power can be used when Hitting . But Ill try to supply the Hows if I can.

Now wait a minute.....the premise was SWINGERS STARTDOWN...not pivot power....it's clear from 2-M-4 that Hitters are not excluded from Body Power....I never said otherwise....my debate is Fly Wheel Spinning...He says that the pivot supplies the initial acceleration...so the clubhead picks up speed from the pivot....so you have right arm and pivot speed...that's not in reference to just 4 barrel hitting....it's in reference to Pivot Stroke Hitting...

In 2-M-4 BODY POWER , Homers use of the word "Or" distinguishes what blasts the Inert Left Arm off the chest... CF via Pivot Thrust (swinging) or Right Arm Thrust (Hittting). Assuming the presence of Body Power. The presence of Body Power forfeiting mere Body Motion , the pivot just Delivering the Right Shoulder to its launch pad position. He's talking 4B Hitting the Launch Pad but one that is on the move through the shot.

For the HOW... see 2-M-3 "......to Power Package Thrust add a Shoulder Turn per 2-M-4..... "

The "OR" of 2-M-4 BODY POWER , is not in reference to possible differences in the Pivot for Swinging or Hitting. Though there may be, probably are some differences depending on the pattern in question , how you add Shoulder Turn, the nature of the Right Arm Throw, the position of the Right Elbow in Release , the path of the #3 pp specifically.

9-1 ZONE #1. "Emphatically , the Hands are not educated until they control the Pivot". This would suggest to me that if your preferred Hitting Pattern made for a different Hand Path then yes the Pivot would logically be different so as to best accommodate the new Hand Path.

To my mind you can Hit with a Deep Right Elbow. Punch Elbow can approach Pitch. Theres a range to Punch Elbow. Hitting is not always an inline Push Basic like Right Arm Extension. It can be a shot putting like motion yes but it can also be more like skipping stones ,a side armed throwing motion at the aiming point. A different Right Arm Throw Implying a different Right Elbow Position a different Hand Path and therefor a different Pivot.

Sure there's a range to Punch....but the limit to the range is the right hip....Punch is there primarily because the Right Forearm is in a position to PUSH NOT PULL

I hope you don't think Im in any way critiquing your personal Hitting Pattern... Given my belief in a multitude of methods I don't rule out very much. Heck Ill try anything. Maybe I don't understand the whys and hows of it all but Im all ears.




To Hit is to Push in Release. To Swing is to Pull.

But how can one PULL from PITCH ELBOW....particularly DEEP PITCH...deep pitch to me translates to sequenced release type.
The look of this varies with the nature of the procedure being used . Again you have the polar opposites and the grey area in between . In the middle they can be very similar. The difference lies in the application of power, component 10-20. THE THROWS. What Throw is being employed through the ball. Is it a Push (Right Arm Throw typically) or a Pull ( Wrist Throw, often).

The Sweetspot may or may not move differently.

To me the release type MANDATES a different motion of the sweetspot Again it depends. It most likely does move differently. Sequenced Release vs Simultaneous , Arc vs Angle of Approach with its Cross Line Plane angle..... Hitting can be a very different procedure... often is. But not necessarily.




Homer says "associate the following with Hitting (10-19-A)". He doesn't say the following define Hitting . He doesn't say the following are unique to Hitting. Many of those components can be used by either Swingers or Hitters .

He is delineating two extremes here again. As he did in 12-1 and 12-2. Here its Drive Loading and Swinging . True Swinging actually given that he lists Plane Line Rotation , F-3. See 7-3 this implies no Grip Rotation , ruling out Manipulated Hands Swingers from this component list. Therefor not even Hogan, a manipulated hands swinger, would conform to this list of Swinging components. There's lots of options. Trillions. The more compensations required , though still "usable", the more complicated the procedure.

In the audio tapes Homer was asked if a Hitter could use the Arc of Approach . His answer was to the affirmative. When asked if a Swinger could use the Angle of Approach Procedure , he said " NO..... uh well yes... but he'd have a lot of compensations to make" .

A lot of those components could change sides. Not all of em though. I have trouble imagining a Hitter with a Sequenced Release . I have trouble imagining a Swinger with an active Right Elbow..... unless he was Right Arm Swinging. Yup the right Arm Swingers aren't included there either . Or the 4B guys. Trevino, Palmer etc. I see Arnie as Pulling in Startdown .

The main problems with a 10-19-C and Right Arm throw combination , the things requiring compensation, are the direction of Loading (10-11-03) and the going from Pulling in Startdown to Pushing in Release, while limiting residual left side Pulling through the ball. You've loaded along the Top but you're going to thrust against the AFT . A lot of guys change their grip, some arch at top , some guys get super deep with a lot of #2 Angle but keep their Right Elbow back so its still Punch and aligned for pushing. They've loaded their Rotated Pressure Point (assuming a 10-2-B grip) in Startdown but now have to Thrust against their #1pp on the aft in Release. Thats a 90 degree problem.

It can be done but it aint easy. Homer questioned whether it was worth the effort and the cost to consistency.

Originally Posted by O.B.Left (Post 89835)

Nice one! Agreed a Hitter can get his Pivot Working via the Pivot PUSHING from the right side. Not a ground up , swinging from the feet pulling or Drag Loading . The left arm is not accelerated in this manner. Arguably , meaning that by definition Power Accumulator number 4 (Left ARm Power) is not being employed. Some would say this isn't 4B Hitting therefor as theres no #4. But I wasn't talking about that. You right that would not be 10-19-C Drag Loading.

Gotta stop you here....swinging from the feet is NOT ...related to SWINGING procedure exclusively.....it is related to PIVOT LAG....the Hitter doesn't not forfeit pivot lag, nor swinging from the feet, nor maximum radius due to HIS SELECTED PROCEDURE.....just want to be sure we are clear there....

6-K-0 PIVOT STROKE DELIVERY In a “Pivot Stroke” the Power Package is held in a fixed relationship with the Body Turn and no independent Arm motion occurs until – or unless – the requirements of the selected Pivot are met. Then Arm Motion, independently or not, Continues Delivery per 10-19 until the selected Trigger occurs (10-20).

Lets work the other side then ...
What would you call a 3B Swinger who added a Right Arm Throw? If he's got a Right ARm Throw he's Pushing in Release , Hitting right? Doesn't he still have a 10-19-C Drag Loading Startdown? Or are you saying he has to forfeit that?
May want to re-read....application of force....


7-20 TRIGGER TYPES The term “Trigger” is used to denote that action which initiates the Release of the Power Package Assembly of Power Accumulators (6-B) to develop and apply force to the ball. It is the lengthening of the third side of the Triangle Assembly which moves the Lever Assemblies toward and through Impact per Pattern. See 6-M-0.

The procedures are termed “Throws” wither they “throw” or are “thrown.” They may be used individually or in combinations. The standard combinations are listed only in Chapter 11-20. Trigger Types are selected according to Release Type and Release Point as defined in 10-20 and 10-24 – that is, Sweep with Sweep, Snap with Snap, etc. For Hitters that means that Triggering (7-20), Assembly (7-21), Loading (7-22), Delivery (7-23) and Release (7-24) require an active Right Elbow and an inactive Left Wrist. For Swingers – vice versa. Study 6-C-2-A, 7-3 and 10-3-K. Remember – an “Active Right Arm” can be Monitored ONLY through awareness of an “Active Right Elbow.” Study 2-G regarding the Swivel and Rhythm. Maximum Trigger Delay noticeably restricts maximum Handspeed (6-N-0). Every Player has a maximum Handspeed and no amount of violent effort will change it much. However, that violent effort per 7-19, cause the Clubhead to fly out into its own orbit prematurely with typical Throwaway results.



I never said " PULL from Pitch". I said Pull from Punch Elbow approaching Pitch Elbow.

I personally see Pitch as a structurally week position from which to Push assuming you can Push .... I have some tendon issues to prove it. You're close to being in a pull position depending on where your Right Elbow is relation to you Hands, meaning you've crossed over to Right Arm Swinging.

As an aside Homer never said you couldn't Hit from Pitch, or Snap for that matter. So here's a point where we both are straying from Homers logic.
In the audio tapes he mentions Right Arm Pitch Basic. " Pitch Basic is merely the Elbow position and can be used Hitting or Swinging, its beautiful for Hitting... "

From the book see POWER PACKAGE RELEASE 10-24-0 GENERAL ".... All Release Variations are valid for both Hitting and Swinging....". This includes 10-24-D NON AUTOMATIC SNAP RELEASE and 10-24-E AUTOMATIC SNAP RELEASE

Maybe you think Im wrong to suggest you can mix all these components up but I submit Homer did it more than I do. In the end he was talking about some crazy non (shaft) planar component combinations. Personally , practically I still have a strong preference for keeping things simple ! Stricker style for me.

If "deep Pitch translates into Sequenced Release" as you say then that would suggest to me that a Hitter could Sequence his Release ... Interesting stuff. Ive also read that the deeper a Hitters Right Elbow gets the more he tends towards Horizontal Hinging. Also interesting.




To me too and therefor the Pivot motion changes as well, logically.


Wanna move over to Arnie's start down?

Or go back to Tiger? Think he got to Pitch Elbow by slowing down? That'd be a good thing in my book. No amount of effort can increase you hand speed materially past a certain point. I think he used to operate past that point a lot. He should get more club head speed like this , with a later release. He probably feels like he's swinging slower when he does this. I like it.

D. I got a feeling Tiger knows exactly what Extensor Action is. Small Pulley Wheel. How figure skaters spin faster. Zone 2 as Power as opposed to Zone 1. What being on plane at Top looks like . Plane Shifts. Plane Line Rotation. Right Forearm Takeaway. Unless things have really changed with Sean Foley , which is possible. He doesnt stand still on the knowledge front. Bet he buys your video .... watch for the new buzz word on tour... "the forearm angle of approach". Kostis will use it without knowing what it is. "Tiger used to get stuck but watch as he clears a huge path with his hips for his right forearm angle of approach".