Daryl, Are you saying the RFAA is a "master" alignment?

HB

The Right Forearm Flying Wedge On-Plane from Release through the Impact Interval is a Master Alignment. It has an Angle of Approach that changes to accommodate all different shots.

I haven't done a good job explaining the RFAA. I'll try harder.

When Homer Kelley says that the Right Forearm Flying Wedge needs to be On-Plane from Release through the Impact Interval, he isn't talking about "Ben Hogans Plane" or the Swing Plane Angle or direction of the baseline of the Swing Plane.

He means that the Right Forearm and Longitudinal COG of the Club must be in Alignment, and when they're Aligned, they form their own Plane - the Plane of the Right Wrist Bend. It would be nice if the COG of the Club were also on the chosen Swing Plane Angle but the Right Forearm Wedge has its very own Alignment and it can follow any Swing Plane Angle or Swing Plane Baseline Direction the Player Chooses.

So, the Right Forearm Flying Wedge should form a Plane of its own. And the Right Forearm, from Release through Impact "approaches" Low-Point by moving "Down, Out and Forward". This creates an Angle.

How do you - the Golfer - know whether or not your Right Forearm Approach angle is optimal? You say: "The right Forearm Flying Wedge should be Aligned to the Swing Plane, and then, it's Optimal". And I say: "The Right Forearm Angle of Approach shows you the Swing Plane and Plane Angle it deems necessary to sustain the Line of Compression" (or something like that).

...With each club
 

"...sustain the Line of Compression...with/for each club." IMHO :golfing_banana:

ICT

deep and Interesting
 

Keep this thread going guys,this is the read I ,ve had in ages.
Im looking and learning with every post.Cant wait to see your video,should be a treat.:dance:

Daryl, You bolded #4 - I assume for emphasis?
Let's see if I am following your thinking.
The left hand remains perpendicular to it associated hinge plane therefore it will roll on the swing plane for horizontal hinging, remain perpendicular to the plane for angled hinge etc. ? The right wrist does not roll but pp#3, which is only monitoring for a swing with horizontal hinging will have the feel of continuing to rotate to the rear of the shaft all the way down plane and will arive at the rear at low point.
Does this sound like the same page U are on?

For the Hit-nothing rolls and pp#3 is stationary?

HB

With Angled and Horizontal Hinge Actions the Primary Lever Turns and Rolls, which is the Plane of the Wrist Cock. At Release, the Back of the Left Hand Faces outward toward the Plane Line and as it Rolls it Faces the Target. I'm only stating that the Plane of the Left Wrist Cock moves from Parallel to the Plane Line to Perpendicular to the Plane Line.

The Right Forearm Plane does not Rotate because its aligned and remains on the Swing Plane. The Right Wrist Does not Roll. The Right Wrist is not Vertical at Impact because the Flying Wedges are aligned at 90 degrees (Optimally).

Also, can you grasp this? In the Release Swivel, Only the Left Hand Swivels, the Right Hand does not. Both Hands Swivel during the Finish Swivel.

You need the Bucket Drill. You'll see the Alignment and understand the beauty of the RFAA.

This statement typifies a widespread and damaging misconception among TGM students. The hands are moving up and in at impact, and so also the right forearm is moving up and in at impact.

We know that but at this point in the discussion it is little more than subterfuge. The basic alignments ar at issue here please.
Thank You

HB

Whoever "We" is, it doesn't include those who don't know it. Writing that the forearm is moving down and out through impact is the deception.

Please explain. :)

I knew you guys were behind, some need longer than others, but I didn't realize that you guys were so far behind.

no sense at all
 

Im sorry,this makes absolutly no sense at all,I can see now why a lot of people shy away from the GM concept..........Im lost,will just look on this thread until its clear to me,what ever happened to down and out............:BangHead:

My opinion, right or wrong, is the "scientific" community is teaching swinging, and not only have no concept of hitting, but insist it doesn't exist. I don't know about you guys, but learning about hitting and right arm participation has been HUGE for me...

Must admit that I dont follow you either D.


How can one wedge Roll without the other doing same ? Wouldnt you have to reform your grip to pull that off. Go from 90 degrees say to more than 90 in terms of the relationship of the two wedge planes.

Assuming a two Vertical , palms facing each other grip type : I see the Hands as Turning (or being turned by Pivot ) on the Backswing , Rolling on the Downswing , the wedges doing same. 90 (or whatever you set at Fix) staying fairly constant.

I dont know about the scientific community but yes , me too, learning to Hit has been huge for me too. Even though Im mainly Swinging these days. Without learning to hit , I never would have understood how much the THRUST continues down and out to Both ARms Straight ! The Thrust , not the hands continues down and out even while the clubhead and the hands start making their way In and Up. Very hard to get this concept while Swinging .

To my mind why guys say they swing but hit the heck out of it with the right side . Why Homer said the Right Side is always driving , Hitting or Swinging . Even with a passive throwout of the right side its still thrownout to Both Arms Straight . Save some right arm for the ball etc. You just dont have much of a game until you understand the right arm extension etc etc etc etc.

Could be a good place to start when re jigging your game. Right Arm extension (passive or active) though the ball and Right Forearm Flying Wedge structure.

YA-NO, I do understand what Daryl is saying. That (my understanding) is not good for his cedibility or reputation. I was hoping to stake out a piece of high ground to make a couple of points that U have heard from me before an never found convincing . But, c'est la vie, the sun will rise in the morning.

hb

Ya bet ya bottom dolla that tomorra.....

Go ahead Bear. I'm slow on the uptake but not afraid to change my mind.

Ob

Well, I'm lost for words. "Say it ain't so, Joe"

Innercityteacher understands, OMG, we talked on the phone for 60 seconds and he understands, he was very surprised - never knew it could be - but he can now Hinge with the best of them.

There's no secret, it's all in the book. If all of us don't understand this "Basic Alignment", "Right Forearm Motion" and "90 degree Wedge Alignment" then communicating is very difficult. Understanding TGM - Possible, Applying TGM - not possible.

If you get a Bucket with Handle, 2 "Red Sticky Dots" and a Dowel Rod, Call me. I'll walk you through it, painlessly. Or, wait for the "Video".

Why is there confusion about whats going up-plane and whats going down-plane?

The Hands travel on a Path toward the ground until under the Left Shoulder (Hinge Location), then they travel away from the ground. ANY Ball Located behind Low-Point will be struck with a Down-Plane moving Clubhead. REALLY.

The Ball, should be struck while BOTH the Hands and Clubhead are moving Down-plane. Don't confuse Low-Point with being the Farthest Point the Clubhead travels from your Left Shoulder. With a Level Left Wrist at Impact the Left Wrist will continue to Un-cock. Low-Point is an Alignment and yes, normally the Alignment occurs at the Lowest Point of the Clubhead Orbit.

The Hands will reach their Closest point to the ground when they're below the Left Shoulder (related to the Ground) but Geometrically its Located when the Right Arm is Fully Straight (Full Extension). So, the Hands Travel Down-Plane until Full Extension regardless of their distance from the Ground. The Hands travel Down-Plane while the Right Elbow is Straightening and Up-Plane while the Left Arm is Folding. Don't confuse "Down-Plane" with the Ground you're standing on, that's "Golf Channel" stuff and stuff you find in golf books for public consumption and by Golf instructors trying to make a living (not all). The Clubhead, Ball and Hands don't know about the Ground and they don't care. They are ruled by Orbit and Low-Point.

Hmm?? A Chipping Stroke occurs when the Hands pass under the Left Shoulder and begin moving away from Low-Point (but Down-Plane) while the Ball, located behind Low-Point is struck with a Down-Plane moving Clubhead Toward Low-Point. The "Turf" is "Chipped" which is different than a "Divot". Why would anyone strike a ball with a Full Stroke while using a "Chipping" Alignment? Crazy perhaps???? Ya, Really. It's used for short Shots around the Green because the significant loss of compression allows you, the golfer, to use an accelerating clubhead without the Ball traveling its normal distance...........

Further explanation : When you narrow your stance and your feet are very close together, Low Point moves about 3-6 inches beyond the Left Shoulder (RFAA). A Ball Played opposite (in-line) the Left Shoulder (Hinge) will be Struck with a Down-Plane moving Clubhead because it's behind Low-Point. Hands leading the Clubhead by 3-6" will be traveling away from Low-Point while the Clubhead Travels Toward Low-Point = Chipping Stroke Pattern. Yet, Both Hands and Clubhead are moving Down-Plane.

capisce?

LOL and if I get it....
 

...then anyone can get it! :toothy1:

Really Daryl, they need the bucket and the red dot. :idea1: I had to go to the range and do lots of swings with the Base Line of the Plane marked with alignment sticks first with a bucket and Extensor Action and then with a club doing chips and then Acquired Motion where the Wheel Rim really jumped out and the Finish Swivel really was powerful. Another move that helped was leading my Axis Tilt with my left knee as I read about in Nick Faldo's "Winning Golf" many years ago and other books, and have observed in lots of videos of both Hogan and Sneed. That Axis Tilt allows the right forearm to drop in front of the right hip as the shoulder slides down. The inside of the forearms both point up as does the right wrist as the hands slide to Both Arms Straight. Straightening the right arm provides all the Extensor action needed and the slightest "flip of the hips" from the front knee allows me to strike a high draw if Swinging and a power fade if Hitting further than I have ever struck the ball before! :dance:

Ball position is varied by the width of stance so other shots can be played. The more I practice with keeping the bucket level through the RFT and Pivot, the more effortless the shots.

Since I do have an artificial hip and a shorter front leg, I do expect my Pivot to be a little less robust but that's why God made senior shafts, hot clubs, TGM and LBG!

:pray:

ICT

Because of your shorter front leg you should be playing below Par. But, from your post I can tell that you're twisting your legs and using that as your Backstroke Hip Turn :nono: (that's not in the Book). So, your knees are out of Alignment and Twisted all about and your only hope to shift your weight has been to use a stack and tilt type lateral move toward the Target to get your weight to move to drive (actually, it would Pull) your right shoulder. Why go through so much work? So much struggle?

Why not allow your Hips to turn and your weight to shift by bending your knees rather than Twisting them? That way, you can "LOAD" your Right Foot during the backstroke and turn your hips to initiate the Downswing using your right leg as a backstop (not launching pad) and your weight will shift at the appropriate time (about a millisecond before impact). See Ben Hogans book, "Five ways or something". Or, March in Place with your feet apart, knees bent and bend from the Hips. Then, your Hips will Turn, weight will shift, but your knees won't Twist. TGM.

It's unfair that you have a shorter left leg because it means that gravity will assist your weight shift and you'll be more powerful going through the Ball. You should give strokes to your competitors. When Obamacare finds out that it helps your game, they'll charge you more.

I'd feel bad if your Right leg was shorter.

Daryl's Helpful Tip: Load your Right Foot before you Load the #3 PP.

Daryl's drill with the bucket indicates that straightening the right arm (if correctly aligned) can hinge the left arm (from the shoulder hinge point), the handle goes from parall to the plane line to perpendicular to the plane line.

red dots
 

Daryl, One point not clear to me. Where do U position the red dpts and what orientation should they maintain?

HB

I have a feeling the video will light it up for all of us. Really excited to see it!!!

And with the Top of the Bucket remaining "Level" to the ground.

One Dot on the outside of the Left Hand and the other on the inside of the Bent Right Wrist.

During Release, you'll see that the Left Wrist Rolls, its Dot goes from facing the Target Line to Facing the Target. You'll see that the Dot on the Inside of the Right Wrist Faces the Sky at Release and Still Faces the Sky at Impact, On-Plane Right Forearm Wedge.

The Left Wrist Rolls, the Right Wrist Doesn't.

The Handle Swivels from the Bucket. So the Bucket Drill removes the Release Swivel Action from the drill so that "Turn and Roll" while the Right Forearm seeks its Angle of Approach to Low-Point can be observed in isolation.

I can see where its going
 

As header states........."I can see where this is going"but Im blind to words.....but I know the wait will be worthwhile&B

Thanks Daryl.
I agree because I can see.

I would like to extend the disuussion of release on the plane to include a piece on "sequential" release.

The interpretation held by Most, is that #2 is released with the left hand flat to the plane then teh left hand is swivled into horizontal hinging and #3 (formed by the residual #2) is "rolled" through impact. I BELIEVE THIS TO BE AN IMPROPER INTERPRETATION of HK "sequential release".

I have mentioned this before and had some PM discussion -part Of which I include below.

------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by HungryBear
A thought on roll;

If the roll to the vertical left-horizontal hinge alignment is early the total roll is only about 30-35 degrees. If the left is held on plane until #2 is released the left roll is almost 90 degrees and must be accomplished in a very short time and distance. this alone is problematic for a repeatable swing.

HB

-----------------------------------------


Not quite- We are not communicating - BUT - we are in pm so please let us get this on the same page because I see it as important.

Experiment: First with the left hand only - Flat left, clubface.
Take your flat-vertical- (cocked if U like, that will not change the clubface geometry at this point)
Go to address- backswing flat left to top- back of hand points across plane line 90 deg and at horizon.
TURN left hand to plane. 4-c-2. hand/clubface is on plane.
No we will come down 2 ways- Both will use 4-c-3 roll.
First -I will call this the BAD way - slow motion swing by sliding your hand flat down the plane, at about waist hight start to uncock the left (that is #2 ) if it was BUT keep your flat hand on plane. now just before impact, look at your hand on plane- You must roll 4-c-3 to vertical for impact. NOTE; the roll 4-c-3 must be almost 90 degrees and it occurs in a very short portion of the swing.
Second- I will call this GOOD way - slow motion swing by sliding the left hand down the plane- But - allow/cause the flat left to roll - 4-c-3 so that it is vertical at hip level. 2 points here. the 4-c-3 roll required was only about 30-35 degrees (on the plaqne to vertical) AND YOU are now in the horizontal hinge with a verticalo club face.




This can let the shaft stay on plane and you can use all the cf U can find- The clubface remans unfer the control of FLAT LEFT HAND.

Any speed, any power, any length, the second experiment repeats. over and over.

I can do experiments eith the right that compliment the left and OBEY HK rules.

This is important.

HK would be proud!

HB
--------------------------------------------------------------

As I believe the sequenced release is realy a "trigonometric" or proportional rate function and is completely on plane- with NO CORNERS or swivels dividing #2 from #3 release

Your thoughts. ?

HB

ps. Only 4 posts to go to catch O.B. ,

HB

I started a new thread "Sequential Release".

Turning hips?
 

Won't turning my hips back and through simply throw me out over the Base Line of the Plane? Marching in place is simply lifting my heels- will try that but I could not keep my balance very well
when Lynn showed me that. :think: RFT then belly button turn since I can't feel my artificial hip? or is it just planting the left heel? :eh:

ICT

It's no wonder many TGMers think the hands are moving downward at impact what with all the emphasis on DOWN DOWN DOWN - all the way to China! But the hand path bottoms out well before impact with the club head still lagging behind

You've got the club head correct - REALLY.

However, no "capisce" on the hands. Go to pg 193, fig 10-19-A and look at the hand path for Hitting and Drive Loading - it's curving upward. It's the same for Swinging and any loading or release type. If the hands are moving downward at impact, the club head will have beaten the hands to the ball from the line of sight perspective, and you will have complete lag loss and compression-less impact.

You're trying to not understand. I don't know why unless you have a chip on your shoulder? TGM'ers are nice people.

I Said: Maybe you don't understand the difference between traveling "Down plane" and traveling "Toward the Ground". It will help you understand if you stop thinking that moving toward the ground is "Down plane" and moving away from the ground is "Up Plane".

I'll try to help:

The Clubhead travels an Orbit and at some point on the Orbit the Leading Edge of the Clubface is Square to the Target Line, the Shaft at its correct Lie Angle and within a Plane perpendicular to the Target Line. This is called Low-Point Geometry and it is an Alignment, and not a specific Location until you designate one.

Imagine the Circle (Orbit) on a Horizontal Plane (see illustration below). Imagine Swinging on a Horizontal Plane and you strike the ball when the Clubshaft is at Right Angles to the Target Line. The Clubhead keeps traveling Down Plane. When does Down Plane stop and Up Plane begin?

Traveling Forward is Down Plane. "Capisce" :)

Whoa Nellie!
 

Upon getting home from school, I busted out the impact bag and a couple clubs. I RFT'd and really sat on my right knee letting it bend quite a bit. I contrasted the Both Arms Straight (BAS) positions using a dowel first though. When separating my left knee the hands really lay back and the BAS position is only slightly forward of the left hip and the hips were only slightly open at impact. In contrast, after loading the right knee and planting the left heel, the BAS position is much further forward with a full Horizontal Hinge, the hips are much more open, and there is and a much more vigorous Forward Swivel. :clap:



Will test this out with the warmer weather this weekend and report back. :golfing_banana:

ICT

D you forgot 1-L whatever. Its the Thrust not the hands or their path that goes down and out to Both Arms Straight. Even though the clubhead is coming In and Up post low point. This is a major thing to my mind.

The Hands also move in accordance to their centre. If the left shoulder as the centre of the left arms travel is raising so does the left hand regardless of where it is vis a vis low point.

If a school clock was positioned higher on a wall . The low point for the minute hand would still be 6 o'clock but the hight off the ground of the furthest extension of the minute hand would be higher... ah ...all analogies suck.

What the heck is the bucket drill? Where is Bucket anyways.

in and up
 

point of origin of centripetal force?
Kinetic link-point?:BangHead:

I don't want to be argumentative. Nice if we're able to have a stress free discussion. This forum pertains to "On Plane Motion Practice" so knowing the Planes, how to coordinate them and what the meaning of Down-ward, Down and Down-Plane will be useful.

But. Chapter 2 has good info on this subject.

The Circle.

When you have an Orbit (Circle) Down-Out-Forward is one direction and In-Up-Back is the other direction. But, the circle didn't determine the direction, we do, by reference. We say, we're going this way or that way.

If the Clubhead while Orbiting could talk, it would say "hey man, I'm going around in a circle".

Honestly, you can't be serious - can you? You said that the hands and club head are moving down plane at impact, which means according to your latest rationalization that even if the club head is moving upwards with respect to the ground, it is still traveling "down" plane. It would not be, it would be "on" plane and moving upward. The clubhead moves backward, upward, and inward on the BS, where upward means with respect to the ground. These are Homer's words(2-F, last paragraph). On the DS, the clubhead moves forward, downward, and outward to low point and then forward, upward and inward, where downward and upward are in reference to the ground. You are confusing Down Plane with On Plane.

Now for the hands - the hands move "off" plane well before impact because Throwout commences before impact, and they follow the hand path - are we to assume by your reasoning that as they arc upward they are still going "down" the hand path even though they are moving upward from the ground?

Forward is Down Plane only only until low point, that's what you need to "capische".

MJ, where did you read, or what makes you think that the Hands move Off-Plane? That theory goes against any current Swing Theory.



After Low-Point, aren't the Club and Hands and Pivot moving Forward (Down Plane)? Although you think that "Forward" is not the same as "Down Plane" I'm sure you must agree that the Hands and Club are moving "Forward" after Impact. I don't know anyone that would claim the Hands and Club stop moving Forward after Impact.

Down the Road (Forward)
Down the Path (Forward)
Down the Aisle (Forward)

PLANE as the nose on my face!
 

At the range with Start-up Swivel loading the heck out of my right foot on the inside and sitting on my right knee though mistakenly planting the left heel to come down, still holding the Bent Right Wrist at the shoulder, gripping the wheel rim allowed me to get to Both Arms straight with no worries. I probably got away with it because both feet were closer together. Snapped lots of Horizontal Hinges with lots of high fades and high draws as I moved leg positions and Low Point. Lots of stability the right leg. Really letting the Forward Swivel go following up the Plane, 50 degrees outside and the driver bounces at 230 yards.

Hands back-make right hip turn left tomorrow! Solid Structure keeping Plane on the "pitched roof "with Right Forearm Angle of Approach feeling to brush against my right thigh very inside and powerful! :dance:

ICT

Finding the Plane a lot closer and further in front of me!
 

A balmy 43 degrees and melting snow greeted us at 8am this morning but what was unexpected was how close the Base line of the Plane was to me and how far in front of me the ball can be struck squarely slightly before Both Arms Straight. The distance with driver was almost June-like which was unbelievable! :dance:

Irons were two -three clubs shorter but the ball position was still incredibly close! A simple left turn with the right hip after RFT sent the ball straight, high and far. So an 84 felt pretty good for not playing for three weeks with a inconsistent putting day.


I have to remember to let the Forward Swivel work and not chicken-wing. :nono:
ICT

Sounds promising. Right Hip Turns Left to start the Down Stroke. Left heel becomes planted. That's a good one.

43 degrees. Not so good. But daring.

Did you win?