Thanks for the details, HB!
 

When I load Extensor Action for Hitting or Swinging I gain power but I also have biological limitations like how fast my old stuff moves. A slight shift left and the club fires full of EA pop! Then it's over! I really do not want to control anything but my chips and putts. :)

ICT

That's the point, because of the physics, you can't.

Thanks HB. I was wrong about the clubhead slowing before impact for the pros. I was sure the max club head speed occurred at the kick point, at which time I thought the clubhead, having passed the shaft was very slightly retarded by it. Apparently this is only true for (most/some?) amateurs.

Mike o I'm going to change back to my original statement that once the lever is at full extension that us the maximum speed #3 supplies power but I don't think t speeds up at that point because of it

Please explain this

remember the hands themselves are going around the pulley also, they ain't slowing down Joe

Too bad HB's Physics article didn't include hand speed, but I think you can extrapolate it from the pro and am1 lead arm graph(blue), which decelerates rapidly through release. It would be hard for the hands to continue at a constant speed while the arm to which they're attached, is decelerating. The reason is that as the left wrist uncocks, the left arm is dragging an ever heavier load as the shaft and left arm head toward the in-line condition. Note that amateur 2 actually speeds up his left arm during release, which seems like a good idea(who here hasn't tried it, including me some time ago! :doh: ), but is not.

A little TGM on the "physics"
 

I would lay a little TGM on the physics:

http://www.mytpi.com/images/pdfs/Kin...nDownswing.pdf

Useing the pro model only. ( who knows what the amatures are doing?)

1. Nice RHYTHM.
2. Assuming- a flat left hand and bent right wrist with on plane forearm- the HANDS move with and seen as part of the club, not the arm.
3. See the geometric release of #2 (THE VELOCITY ACCUMULATOR), as the true velocity accumulator
4. See #3 (TRANSFER) by comparing the arm rotational velocity to the club rotational velocity and noting the overtaking effect of #3 accumulator


Just my observation

HB

Does any of this data show that you can't have a constant handspeed? No

In fact, the Am #2 data show that you can speed them up, but you shouldn't! I'm willing to bet he's a Switter. Having dumped his accumulators too soon, he then stifles CF by firing his right tricep. The point is that it requires hand/arm manipulation to prevent their slowing in the uncocking phase.

The one most important thing which jumps out from the study is that good players delay their accumulator dumps, while ordinary ones don't. If you want maximum club head speed, you pivot lag #4, and then take #2 deep down plane before releasing, or better yet, increase it with down-cocking. The better you lag #2, the more the hands will slow down in the free-wheeling stage, provided you don't interfere.

The data does not conclude that at all, that is your own seems as if idea. The hands cancertainly go a constant speed through release and all players should strive for it. Set the initial thrust so the hands can move at a controlled speed and uncock and roll and release

You're not reading the data correctly.

All players should strive for lagged accumulators and not think about the endless belt model.

The player should use the Thorax to drive as heavy a pressure in PP#3 as he can muster at the ball, and the hands will move at the required speed, as long as he doesn't try to add.

please explain the data and show me what it concludes or how it proves your point. the endless belt is a great way to understand the release and I know greg smith and I have discussed it many times during practice. wheres the data, what supports your point? what point do you have?

Strive for a continuous, smooth, constant hand speed throughout for all shots, from tee to green and I promise, you will be a better golfer. this is practically half the mechanics for me along with extensor, constant hand speed and extensor ARE BIG DEALS

Look at the graphs in the study! I've already discussed them above. The endless belt doesn't have an uncocking club attached to it, only a duck!

I suspect that you say this because you are a sweep releaser and that's how it feels to you. You probably have a circle hand path, which would mean you don't really have a pulley. In that case you have to feel a "smooth, constant" hand speed in order to avoid so much #2 throwaway that your hands can't get to the ball before the clubhead.

whip, you should not be aware of hand speed at all, since the necessary hand speed in a Swing is provided automatically by the pivot actuation of #4 and then #2, ideally properly sequenced and lagged. Look again at the pro graph in the Cheetham study. You want peak hip speed to precede peak thorax speed to precede peak left arm speed, which decelerates rapidly before impact. To get this, you drive the right shoulder while keeping #4 fully loaded, so it can "blast off".

Joe I use random sweep, have never sweep released nor am I concerned with what it feels like to me to explain the physics, you say that a sweep release has no pulley this is incorrect the pulley is just larger than a snap release pulley. What you don't seem to understand is that in a sequenced release the number four must be released prior to #2 if u delay four until the last second releasing two and four at once this is not a sequenced release. I don't care for thT particular study and you still have not explained anywhere why the more #2 you have the more u must slow down the hands or how these graphs show that and I would highly question this data anyway. Constant hand speed is a virtue I'll say it again and again, and work on it constantly in practice along with extensor, they are the backbones to a smooth consistent structured motion. If u have a book, an look at the endless belt it in fact DOES have an uncocking club attached, grizzly Adams did have a beard! In a swing we are not driving the right shoulder the hips via the axis tilt pull the shoulder down plane which in turn throws the number four off the chest, then the number 2 uncocks and the number three rolls. If u realize what ur typing ur telling golfers to rapidly decelerate their arms and not be concerned with a constant hand speed, this is disastorous.

As far as you telling me that my notions are derived from my own procedure that you viewed on YouTube I'll refer u to this post by the late great Matthew

Oh boy!

Yes whip, in fact I do understand a sequenced release. But, the release of #4 happens as a blast off from the shoulder drive, and it happens late, but WAY before #2 in a snap release, whereas, a sweeper, random or full, lets the motion of #4 trigger #2 release with the club head moving backwards too early. This makes the #2 and #4 releases too close together.

If you aren't driving that right shoulder, you are using only hip pivot and tilt, which is anemic in comparison.

Gee whip, you really haven't been reading my posts. The player doesn't decelerate the left arm, the physics of a proper pivot driven Swing does it for him!

angular velocity
 

I have noticed that the "measurement" show NO interaction or disruption of the angular velocity curves between adjacent elements.

http://www.mytpi.com/images/pdfs/Kin...nDownswing.pdf

Specific- the thorax/arm curves for the pro but likely disruption for the amatures. "IF" #4 is "thrown off the chest" I would expect to see it in the pro curves. I have had some ideas on this subject but first I would like to hear your opinions.

HB

To blast off or pack ?
 

Interesting. And how does Blast Off jive with Rhythm?

What ya got Bear?

The arm NEVER "touches" the chest!???

HB

Interesting. You got your "plugged in" types. You got your "blast off " guys ... and I guess you got your 'NEVER touches " . Different strokes for different folks... OK by me.

Other explanations for the "smooth" curves?
What are "plugged in" types?

HB

Sorry- did some research and I don't think I should continue this discussion here. Not that interesting anyway.

John Daly says on the BS, he grabs a pec full of bicep! :laughing9

AT LOW POINT AM I -- FLV or FUV???
 

I thought this would be as good a spot as any to ask some questions concerning maximum lever length. The photo showing Jack with left arm clubshaft and clubhead all under his left shoulder at impact is where my uncertainty begins. At low point what condition is the left wrist in? Is low point always going to have the left wrist in FUV condition or can it be FLV? Secondly if low point is always opposite the left shoulder and I positioned my ball opposite this point, does my impact fix position have my left wrist FLV or FUV? If the former wouldn't I still be able to take turf because my primary lever hasn't reached full extension?

I guess the word "NORMALLY" makes room for exceptions to the quote above. Would be very interested in yours and others thoughts.

I think cocked to level goes with the territory. But I think there are ways to hit the ball where it doesn't go completely to uncocked, ways where the shaft never runs straight up the Left Arm, but runs towards a "virtual" hinge that sits somewhere below the left arm, closer to the elbow plane.

Taking turf from Impact fix at low Point
 

If low point is always opposite the left shoulder and I positioned my ball opposite this point, does my impact fix position have my left wrist FLV or FUV? If the former wouldn't I still be able to take turf because my primary lever hasn't reached full extension?

Thanks for your thoughts Bernt, what about my last questions taking turf from low point?

Good question, Slazman,

I think FUV at impact is gonna be a problem. It will mean that the right foream is (probably) under plane, or that you have a chicken wing like forearm through the ball to keep it on plane. I think when it happens more towards the target and not towards the target line. I'm must thinking out loud here. I've never given this much thought, though. I mainly look for enough lag to produce good speed before impact and sustained lag pressure through the ball and I don't think the second part is possible if the hands fly up high before impact. Which they have to do to reach impact with a FUV left hand.

Regardless of low point, you have to understand that you MUST NOT be uncocked at impact, because you cannot properly compress a golf ball unless there is uncocking from impact to separation.