Shoulder position? TSP at Top- Pitch elbow vs. punch elbow. See the two sequences above . See the different alignments. Required alignments ? Because of elbow pitch vs. punch?:thumright

HB

Hitters Angled Hinging invariably/automatically aligns the Right Shoulder for Impact Support. Swingers don't. 99% of Golfers are Swingers.

Then there are goofy foot golfers!!
 

Like to see a survey- I think it would be interesting.

% who think they are swingers.
% that are swingers.
% of "swingers" that use a Pitch elbow.
% That just think they use a pitch elbow.
% that start at adfjusted address.
% that start a FIX or otherwise
% that don't shift plane.
% that think they don't shift plane.

Golly! this could go on forever. :rolleyes: :whistle: :idea1:

1-L? The Machine? It doesnt have two Shoulders how can it do Rotated? You talking Angled Hinge arrangement?


Its a model , only, a good one too for understanding the inherent geometry of an Angular Motion on an Inclined Plane with a Hinge Action. But we're talking human motion now arent we? More levers?

So you saying you can do Rotated/Rotated with an axis tilt, a hip slide , a weight shift? I dont think so. Once the right shoulder drops via the hip slide axis tilt .......it isnt Rotated on the way down any more.

The helicopter blades do not describe single plane of motion back and down, when you tilt your axis. Good thing too , to my mind. I like to get the Right Shoulder closer to the ball and tilt its plane of motion towards the ball/plane line.

Daryl . . . . you don't think that the hands and club are being supported by the shoulder motion in this swing? I see the right arm being supported by the ENTIRE TORSO? Right shoulder seems to be pressuring the entire left arm and right forearm?

1-L is THE golfing machine right? there isn't a shoulder joint that moves the hinge pin away from the axis . . .

The hips can slide forward and the hip slant and shoulder slant not immediately "spin the fly wheel" . . . you'll see this in lots of players . . . hips and shoulders maintain their slant as the hips move forward . . .


[IMG][/IMG]

Let me put it this way: That guy wouldn't know a right arm if it wasn't attached to his body...:laughing9

I see a ton of muscle flex in his left forearm but none-zero-zip from his right arm.:)

The Alignments are there. Great Horizontal Hinge with Right Arm Alignment support. He's a great player but his right arm has atrophied and it's barely strong enough to hold a soup spoon.

I don't know. Someone needs to give him a call and ask if he Drives his Right Forearm into Impact.

Perhaps he is using all left arm to throw like a side arm frisbee throw with little right arm participation. I can recall someone's review paper about right arm vs left arm centrifugal force use .

OK bucket find a pic of an atrophied left arm and taut muscles in right arm perhaps performing a right arm underhanded throw with and inert left arm which is only a rope.

O.B.
As I understand it "Rotated" is Turning around the post. 1-L. In either direction. I think one could "relocate" (tilt, shift etc.) the shoulders at almost any point as long as the TURN is around the post and NOT around a TILT axis. You can also get the shoulder closer to the ball by leaning the post towards the ball.

HB

I could be wrong, but I don't think 1L is the chapter in the book I would use to compare components. 1L covers the basic geometry. I think it's difficult to use 1L to explain things like shoulder, feet, knee, and hip components. I think you may be painting yourself into a corner by not looking further in this discussion...

1-L and "10-13-C"
 

When I see "Rotated" I think 10-13-C which is, turn around the spine or could be turn about a post.
I see little use but it is possible and would be 1-L. this would not be on a practical plane for full swings.

The original question on FLAT and Rotated BS planes ( where the rotated plane may be too steep) I would answer is because it intercepts a starting point for a practical DS plane.

Most think this to be the TSP. I think of TSP as being a point-any point- from which a practical DS plane can be constructed.

Not that I really want to get into this here but--
Trying to create a machine that represents all elements of the golf stroke is difficult. Most attempts have resorted to the "Double Pendulum" model. In my simple mind- NOT GOOD. I have been thinking along the lines of HAND PATH GEOMETRY and single pendulum. And if the hand path geometry can be expressed as a mathematically determined figure the computer (real computer) is "home free.
So, I started thinking as the Hand Path Model being Hyperboloid of single sheet and the club is simple pendulum
.:scratch: :hello2: :clap: :dontknow:

HB

Yeah, I agree with that, Kev. Specially when it doesnt have shoulders, feet, knees or hips. Its a model which reveals the geometry inherent in a sport when using an instrument like a golf club , with its hooked face and inclined lie angle. The geometry of a Hinge Action of an Angular (circular) Motion on an Inclined Plane. ......I think itd work for a hockey stick stick or shot too. Got to think on that one a bit.....wheres my book?

I think its another definition thing again. To get Homer you gotta get his point of view I believe, his perspective , eye ball wise. DTL, caddy, players view etc. D sorted me out on one of these a couple of months ago as I recall. Its easy to get things mixed up. Homer can also, in words, shift his visual point of view quickly. Angle of Attack, Arc of Approach......different points of view of the same clubhead path. Confusing but very necessary.


"At right angles to the spine" here to me implying looking DTL at a golfer, who given waste bend will show his shoulders describing a motion which is at right angles to his spine but tilted forward vis a vis the ground. Like Mr Woods in that photo above say.

Shoulder Turn
 

I am comfortable with HK's view. This should be easy geometry. The component- Shoulder turn, The variations- HK illustrates 5,
lets reduce it to 3. We place a disk centered at the golfers axis of rotation. put a point on the circumferance of the disk.

#1 the axis and disk are not rotated- Varation ZERO
#2 The disk and axis are rotated such that the disk plane is always perpendicular to the axis of rotation- variation ROTATED
#3 The disk plane is not perpendicular to the axis and therefore the disk will appear to "wobble" on the axis as the disk and axis are rotated. This is the variation that exists for "flat" backstroke and "on plane" downstroke or other planes that dont meet #1 or #2.
There is more geometry. If, the DS plane Top is not precisely located for a proper "wobble" the golfer can not obtain/maintain a straight plane line without compensations. This "wobble is set BOTH by amount of backstroke rotation and axis tilt at/near the top.

Just my opinion-All disclaimers apply

Ps. Which leads to the question - Should the shoulder be on a downstroke plane to the plane line or to support the hands?

HB

Interesting analysis.

Personally, I am trying to go to a bit steeper shoulder turn to help get my mid-section out of the way. With a bit flatter shoulder turn I tend to be a herdsman (humper of the goat).

Standard Shoulder Turn....Flat Back/On Plane combo. One great description of this was from Ted Fort (aka Yoda's Luke) . Imagine your Right Shoulder being a paint brush that paints a "7" in the air......flat back and then down the plane, diagonally. Like a 7 when you look back at what your shoulder is painting. If you know what I mean. So its not describing the same motion back and down, two different motions, directionally. Its a bit counter intuitive I know, but its a bit of genius, cant tell you how much this has helped me. And upon investigation we do this sort of thing all day long, doing all sorts of motions. We direct our Hands and the Pivot responds.

To answer the question in your P.S. The Right Shoulder can only go down the Inclined Plane if its on the Inclined Plane at Top to begin with. Making for a TSP plane angle by definition, a Plane ( from Hands to Base Line) that also runs through the Turned Right Shoulder at Top. So the Right Shoulder is doing both ......down plane motion and supporting, directly pulling the Hands in Startdown. Made necessary by the Downstroke Sequence where you let your Pivot pull the inert Hands, Arms in Startdown. Since your Pivot (right shoulder) is pulling it best be pulling somewhere, ideally at the Plane LIne given that the Hands are going to follow it directly , linearly.

If I had a scanner down here (im on vacation) id do some drawings . Hmm maybe Ill try photo'ing something with my phone....

The first part is good. condition #3 is met by the 7 image. Both the backstroke and downstroke must intersect at the point of the 7 which must be precisely located so the downstroke plane is parallel to the plane line otherwise compensations are required.

The second part- I believe that HK "prefers" the shoulder move on the same plane as the hands- 7-13 paragraph #2. This is logical as all energy to the club flows through the hands. therefore any "off plane" to the hands will be dangerous.

Same disclaimers

HB

I think we're saying the same thing here maybe cause that only happens when their both on the same plane, ie when the Right Shoulder is on the Inclined Plane in Startdown (TSP by definition). Startdown the period of Shoulder of Acceleration by definition. Hands are always on the Inclined Plane , if the Right Shoulders gets on it too at Top...you got a TSP angle of which there is a range I suppose.

I tried doing a few drawings, when you get into all the parameters , TSP, Flat vs Rotated , zero or single or double shift.......it gets messy. Need to do them to proper scale to make the implications to shaft angle at impact, waste bend clear and relevant. Hard to do on the beach.... But they would describe TGM's Standard Shoulder Turn , S and T Rotated/? Double Shift and I was looking at Matt Kuchar there in pencil form too on one of them.

Im thinking this'd be a good thing to doodle out .....the photos in the book are great but some simple stick men that would also combine the various related components (TSP, Standard Shoulder Turn, Zero Shift or minimal a shift) would make for a nice presentation of one of Homers most brilliant ideas....... Maybe we could Yoda to offer an opinion to make sure we're book compliant. One thing though .....I dont think you can do it with a hanky under your arms. You need independent arm motion (independent of the PIvot).

In any event .....Why is the Alignment Golf Shoulder Turn "Flat" on the backswing (only, not on the way down)? To try to get the Right Shoulder over to the Elbow Plane or as close to it as is possible. So as not to necessitate a shift of any large degree during the Downswing. Final final answer. And of note. Just because the Right Shoulder turns Flat does not mean the Hands are going back flat given Independent Arm Motion. A free connection where the Arms meet the Shoulders (Pivot). Right Shoulder turns IN, Hands go UP , but they meet up on a TSP and share a ride down the Inclined Plane..

I keep saying that bit.....its the brilliant result of these component combinations, this pattern. Genius. That or Im totally crazy.....or both I suppose, if you want to catalogue all the possibilities , Homer would.

Homer listed TSP for the Plane Angle, Zero Shift and Standard Shoulder turn for both Basic Patterns of 12-1 and 2. You can argue whether Zero is really possible but assuming minimal shift as a goal anyways ........He was clear in his preferences and from my experience Id have to say he's correct. Very correct. But not commonly understood maybe? Its too bad, it'd be revolutionary and its already 40 years old. That said you do have options.....not saying Double Shift is not workable.

The downstroke subject is moving well beyond the Back-stroke question this thread is based on. Therefore, and also because I have learned over time that any perception of challenge to established dogma never has a good end. Perhaps, we can return to it at a different time in another, more appropriate thread.

HB

A challenge to "established dogma"? What the? That's a pretty insulting and kind of weird comment. Thanks. What'd I do but try to answer your question politely? We're talking about golf for frig sakes. Shoulder turns! Yeah I see the forces lined up against you. Total conspiracy.

Let me respond to the second quote above in another way then. The way I chose not to first time around.

You dont understand what Standard Shoulder Turn is obviously. The Right Shoulder , the Hands taxi driver during Startdown, seeks out the Plane Line as if it was going to hit the ball. Small the heck out of the ball. Its not a merely a fixed Shoulder/Spine arrangement. That'd be Pivot to Hands. The Hands are directing.


Ob

PS The answer to the original question lays in the downstroke, to my mind. .........It is not beyond the scope of this thread. Not at all.

LOL - happy to find out it's not just me needing that bang the head against the wall icon. :-)

Shouldering the load of my ignorance
 

HI.

Taking a mental health break from lawyers and divorce stuff to ask a question that will help my serenity/golf regarding shoulders.

I was looking straight down at the optic yellow range ball the other day and wondered if I just tried to come straight down on it with my irons, sort "OVER MY SHOULDER" and get maximum DOWN, would I automatically be Hitting and wouldn't it be a steep shoulder turn? I'd plant to start the Pivot and Thrust.

Wouldn't the steepness fire the ball out like a rifle shot, if I do it correctly? Why don't more golfers do this given windy Spring conditions and dry summer fairways? Is there an optimum way to sort of "pinball" the golf ball and isn't in a steep shoulder attack?

ICT

When working with Lynn you are going to learn all about the right shoulder moving down the plane, and your chest "covering" the ball through impact. You are going to learn to turn your right hip back, shift your weight into your right leg while staying in the center of the tripod. You are going to be AMAZED at what you can accomplish. I've seen it, and nobody else can explain it as YODA does in person. I am so excited, I think you will have a "Frank" like epiphany!!! I still work with Frank, and we continue to reinforce the foundation YODA taught him.

Kevin

Here is an interesting article regarding the back swing shoulder turn....

http://www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyl...rn-part-2.html

Helpful
 

Thanks compadres! :golf:


ICT

your welcome, it might take 4 or 5 reads before it sinks in :laughing9

Just re reading this. Slide with a Delayed Turn (Hogan) will not spin the fly wheel agreed. You can not spin without turning. Turning, the Pivot as a giant rotor, ground up sequence, one of the two divergent vectors etc.

But the Slide of the Hips given a centered head will tilt the right shoulder closer to the ground , or given forward waist bend down plane towards the ball.

Buck baby, I think you are talking shoulder "slant" looking DTL while Im talking "tilt" caddy view? Maybe? I dunno.

Imagine Hogan unsliding his hips in that first pic below his right shoulder would move up, no? Wouldnt be Hogan anymore, man that guy had a great set of hips.

I dunno. Its way easier to see this shoulder axis tilt when the shoulders arent turned like they are Top. Thats why I picked that one there at impact. But the same tilt is there prior to Startdown for Hogan.

PS just noticed the ellipses have a slide depicted ....never noticed that before. See how the Hip ellipse has slid target wards. That guy knew exactly what he was doing to include that in the drawing. Or not, whats up with the following ones though? What the.... Looks like he's hitting downhill all of a sudden mid swing. Hmmm editorial maybe? Hoover's FBI maybe? Didnt want the commies getting ahold of our golf secrets. Yup .....its all making sense to me now.

very nice OB! good ole VJ Trolio knows a little bit about that action:laughing9

For sure I was really enjoying his book till I lent it to my brother. Homer and Lynn have taught it for decades now. Hip Slide with a Delayed Turn. To me this is the second "Clear the Right Hip" of 12-3. The thing that could have fixed Tigers "stuck"'position maybe? Hogan cleared a path for his Right Elbow, Moe try to clear one that you could drive a truck through. Pitch elbow requires room which I think relates to that move they both display in Buckets videos maybe.

Axis Tilting gets the Right Shoulder down which is great but the associated Slide shifts the weight, centers up the Axis of rotation over the left side like vj pointed out and with the still turned back right hip creates a lane for the insie out delivery path of the right forearm, the elbow being the problem.

Took me years to realize this problem could create Release to avoid the collision. Is this another reason a lot of good golfers dip their Heads? To create a wider lane?


Sorry for going off topic............

P.S. To get it all on topic: If the Flat Back turn of the Right Shoulder in Startup cant make it all the way over to your desired plane at Impact (shaft plane probably, ideally) then the Slide (with the Delayed Turn) will get it there or at the very least closer. Failing that you could Vertical Drop, Shift Down to a lower plane or come in on a higher plane than your shaft plane.

This is all based on Plane Shifting be "hazardous" which it is, theoretically, although it can be trained and engrained obviously. Homer did define everything from zero shift to more planes than an airport to non shaft planar all together.

no worries...I tried it for a while and had a couple great rounds, but for some reason I was getting ahead of the ball at impact and smothering or pushing everything.

I went into my back leg at the start of the BS, then made the lateral move toward the target in the later part of my BS. But before I knew it, my head & upper body were in front of the ball.

Im enjoying success now just using a basic (12-1,12-2?) drive load pattern a la Brian Gay, so I have shelved VJ's move for now. Doing a LOT of DS waggles per Lynn in Alignment Golf, feeling the pull...I do have a quesiton on drive loading that Im about to post in the hitters forum.

IMHO, and I hope someone corrects me if I am wrong...

MacDonald drill #2, while keeping some pressure on the left foot, and you are very close to the action of both Lynn and VJ... I am a very big fan of VJs book as well.

If I don't keep pressure on my left foot, I can't get left through impact... :naughty: I can try to get this fat, inflexible body to Hula-Hula all I want, but if I don't keep pressure on that left foot all I can do under the gun is spin around my right leg. Death move.

Another opinion, if you look at the principles of pressure on the left foot in S&T, TROLIO, and YODA, they are very similar. Centered Pivot, no matter how you get er done... :salut:

Kevin

Kev,

When you keep pressure on the left foot are you less likely to get that feeling (or reality) that you are getting ahead of the ball at impact? Im all for "covering" the ball, but when I did VJ's pivot, or McHattons youtube "torque drill", or even Clements "hogan move" I always got ahead of the ball at impact.

When I do Lynn's DS waggle from the AG vid,,(stretch w/ extensor rightward as lower body is stretching toward the target) I dont get ahead of the ball, my head stays back and all is good.

Im prolly just "over cooking" VJ's move or something, but Im sure it could be a pretty dynamic move once mastered...

You've got to keep doing what works for you. Anything to stay centered and achieve YODA's alignments!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alAmQRn0Bus

Kevin

true, true....is the master swinging here?

Good question. I've thought four barrel hitting???

what I like about his swing is that you don't really see a big slide left on the DS, barely even a noticeable bump...almost as if his left hip is already left at set up, and all he does is pull it out of the way on the DS.

I love it:laughing9

No wasted motion!

Same song books
 

Hi CF, Kev, sportsfans.

I have been cycling around all these images, also. A couple of times I did VJ's move on purpose and got a sold 230 yard carry. But I could not replicate it. since that time, I have realized the Flail's importance and the power of arms in Zone 2, and the needed connectedness of the chains.

I played last Sunday morning with one thought. I made myself swing around a stationary head. It was 35 degrees and blustery with a sunny sky. We were playing two man better ball so I was taking some chances I would not normally take and shot 9 pars but 3 doubles and one trip bogie =91 :(

Our team core was 73. My bulls eye putter was so sweet. Thanks JerryG!

The greens were like ice, so to speak! LOL Oh wait, freezing is 32 degr. F.
:golf: