I think these ideas 12 Piece has explained is huge to my understanding of swinging left...

I create that perverted axis tilt YODA talked about, my right shoulder goes down with no out, and I'm stuck swinging way out to the right. No possible way to get left no matter how hard I try, and no way to get on top of the ball with my sternum.

Getting the right shoulder to go OUT along with down opens my shoulders slightly at impact, and allows me to swing back up the plane line (swing left) instead of out to the right, causing either massive blocks or the quackers.

Still excited a day later!

:golfer3:

Kevin

I want to be hands controlled, I don't want to screw that up, and I don't think this will...

Thanks Daryl! :notworthy

Kevin

Yup, we are travelers of the same road.

Very frustrating and not easy to lick.

LOL -- we always have been my friend! :golfing_banana:

Kevin

Count me among the perverted tilters -- kind of like an old gun fighter with that perpetually low right shoulder so I can get to my gun. No place to go but absolutely killed blocks or flipped hooks. (At least the blocks feel great and go a LONG way...)

I've actually considered going to a Trevino-like open geometry to just play a push/block and be done with it. It's saved a nine or two over the summer when everything I looked at was headed left...

Swing Left............:blackeye:

Really swing left or just feel like swinging left?

When it comes to physical motions, I actually come very close to doing exactly what I feel like I'm doing -- plays havoc with advice meant to sound like move a foot anticipating you'd only really move an inch. I suspect it's part of my current problem, having overcooked the "out" of down and out.

I cant find my 5 lessons did Hogan really equate the pane of glass to the Plane the Shoulders turn on? That pretty darn steep, I dont recollect him doing that.....That'd be steeper than Rotated wouldnt it?

One thing I gotta note: The Right Shoulder is part of the Power Package in that it takes the Power Package the Hands down the Inclined Plane in Startdown. The right shoulder Drags, the Power Package down the Inclined Plane .....towards the ball, briefly during Startdown. This move relates to "Startdown Waggles" and/or Mr Hogans demonstration of what he termed "the most important move in golf" in the Shells WW of Golf video available on this site.

For you to have your Right Shoulder take the Left Arm Down the Inclined Plane you'd have to have your Right Shoulder , Left Arm and Hands all on the Inclined Plane, no? A "Left Arm Plane" as opposed to a Turned Shoulder Plane. Which would require a zeroing of #3 Angle too wouldnt it? Moe came kinda close maybe but didnt get all the way there.

The Right Shoulder taking the Hands down plane while the Left ARm is not on plane is far more common Id say. A necessary move for those who dont want to start down with their arms or hands......"hitting from the top" as its commonly known. "Swinging from the Feet" on the other hand, as Homer referred to it, the Downstroke Sequence of 6-M-1, is classic Hogan. In fact in regard to this Sequence Homer said "now you take Hogan , THE ideal...." .

I believe Homer had Hogan in mind when it comes to the description of Drag Loading in Startdown and Swinging from the Feet.

But that isnt to say he didnt Thrust in Release ...... 4B Hit. Our own Ted Fort and Lynn Blake Hit with a Swingers Startdown , Drag then Drive. (Although they can both Drive Load 3B Hit if they want to). In the former the Right Shoulder keeps on moving , in the latter it hangs back and backstops the Thrust .....Launching Pad.

So Id personally say that if MR Hogan is hitting its after a Drag Loading , Swingers Startdown. Longitudinal is clearly evident , Active Left Wrist , Pitch Elbow so if he is Thrusting right at the bottom it with a lot of Swingers Components.

So the million dollar question then becomes ..........if he is Thrusting , Actively unbending his Right Arm in a Throwing like manner (no way is it a linear thrust ...which is a huge misconception about the Hitters Right ARm motion in Total Motion ......linear Push Basic is for Basic Motion only, maybe you could do it in Acquired too I guess). Sorry Ill start it again:

If he is Thrusting , what is he thrusting against? What pressure point? For it to be #1 he's really poorly aligned with his Pitch Elbow, isnt he? Any one ready to enter the Lab with an X Classification Throw or similar? I've got an idea but its a weird one.

Could you clarify a few things for me . . . . what do you mean by "hang back" in your Drive Loading reference? Just because the right shoulder moves in and doesn't "hang back" are we to infer "4 barrels" are being employeed?

I think we could clear some of this up . . . I may be mixed up too . . .

But lets distinguish a Drag Load Startdown from a Drive Load Startdown just isolating the shoulder motion (if we can . . . maybe you can't just isolate that one piece).

OK guys good stuff...... But since I can't get out on the range I don't want to get confused.
Ok I have taken the club back and am ready to start the downswing. I have been taught the following by TGM teachers.
Plant my heel and my right shoulder goes to the ball. My hands go to the ball accelerating the club longitudinally. I have been encouraged to swing flatter so that "the club should feel like it is coming out of the center of my back" ie on the elbow plane. So I am trying to put all this together with some of the thoughts you have posted. My question is if I start down with the shoulder going to the ball, my hands going to the ball and I am going to spin the flywheel with the swinging procedure how is that going to feel like the club is coming out of the center of my back as it appears Hogan's does. Once the shoulder and the hands start at the ball it seems the die is cast and its going to feel everything is coming off of the right shoulder. Of course if I have abducted my right arm to my side I know I have flattened my plane. and when viewed down the line it might look like the club is coming from my mid back. To further complicate these feels is the feeling of the right forearm on plane with the shaft at address and through out the backswing vs setting up with the hands lower at address. Going even further is working in the hands feeling high or low at impact !!!. So I hope you keep discussing this so it makes more sense to me.

Ok . . . I certainly agree that from impact to delivery Hogan and Fowler execute a plane shift (most do) . . . BUT . . . I think Hogan is pretty much executing ON PLANE as much as anybody ever has from delivery through the ball. Hogan's hands are riding the plane in my opinion . . . Fowler's hands are above or the plane line has shifted right. People like to say Fowler swings like Hogan . . . not even close in my opinion. With Fowler it looks like CF is in control . . .everything trying to get "in line". Could be wrong . . .

Would you pleas look at your first sentence. You said "Impact to delivery"?

I agree that Fowler and Hogan look very different post Impact. But I don't think that it involves CF. I think that Fowler lets his pivot control the alignments and he Fully Flattens his Right Wrist and he doesn't yet see the need to Swing On-Plane from Impact to Both arms straight.

Hogans Hands ARE riding the Plane. Question?? is that his Pivot steering his Hands? Would Hogan do that? I don't think so because doing that on every shot, partial to full and every club wouldn't lend to his consistency. I think that Hogans intention was to swing On-Plane and he taught his Pivot to accommodate that.

Sure forget about the angle . . . The principle is the hands never GET ABOVE THE SHOULDER LINE. Shoulder stay on top of the hands and arms . . .

The start down waggle .. . . . you watch that video . . . what he demonstrates and what he does . . . COMPLETELY DIFFERENT . . . . Hogans right shoulder DOES NOT DROP DOWN VERTICALLY EARLY AND HIS HIPS SPIN EARLY . . . DON'T HAPPEN . . . everybody looks at him doing them super slow mo demonstration swings . . . he didn't swing like that either . . .

Hogan thought he did this . . . .
FEEL


But he REALLY did this . . .
REAL

Furyk is closer to Hogan than Fowler thru the ball . . . Fowler is freakish . . . I'm not sure I see any alignments? Free ride

Fowler has a perfect Right Forearm Flying Wedge on plane from release to impact and a perfect sequenced release.

Ya, everything else is freakish. :laughing9

Totally agree, what he demonstrated and what he did were different. He does not do a "Hip Slide with a Delayed Turn" in his demonstration but he does in his real swing. The Slide tilts his Shoulder Axis which lowers his Right Shoulder a very good thing.

I dont have the 7th edition but isnt Hip Slide with Delayed Turn the reco in chapter 12? I sure love it ...........as does V.J. Trolio (aint it his secret?) and Brian Gay and Lynn Blake and Homer was a freaking genius with the TSP and Standard Shoulder turn.

Look how the shaft steepens out . . . . #3 steriodzzzz

Furyk . . . .

The Right Shoulder , the Pivot moves through the shot , powers the shot, for the Swinger or for the 4B Hitter..........(a Hitter who Drag Loads in Startdown like a Swinger but then Thrusts in Release).



OK .....regarding 12-1 and 12-2, Drive vs Drag.......to my mind the difference in Right Shoulder motion is a result of the work provided by the Right Shoulder within each. The right arm attaches to the Right Shoulder at one end and the grip at the other. In 12-1 Drive Loading. The Right Arm Drives , Actively extends (in most cases in a side armed throwing motion, fanning and bending) off of the Right Shoulder which provides no thrust or work of its own although it can move (especially in longer shots from Top to Release). Right Shoulder "Motion but not Work" in Total Motion.

Where as the Swinger, Drag Loader, the Pivot moves the Right Shoulder through the shot with the Right Shoulder working , providing accelerating force to the club. Here the Right Shoulder spins the Left Shoulder which pulls the Left Arm which attaches to the club.

EAch procedure has its own associated pressure points as well but thats a different bit of business.

So in Drive Loading, depending on the length of shot at hand the Right Shoulder can be essentially motionless or move during the Delivery of the Fully Loaded power package to its Release Point (from Top to Release) but this is not powering anything.....just delivering. Which I call "hanging back" maybe I shouldnt of used that term cause its no where to be found in the book or Lynns words.

4B at least the version I know......You Drag Load in Startdown then Drive in Release. The Right Shoulder , the Pivot providing work, power and the Right Arm extending against it like a Launching Pad that is also moving. Meaning added power. But with a cost....which is also another matter.

I see Hogan's Right Shoulder moving right on through the shot beautifully, like everything else he does. I see Longitudinal Acceleration, " arrow from quiver" ,Rope Handling, Active Left Wrist ....all classically associated with and indicative of Drag Loading in Startdown. He is Drag Loading for sure in Startdown...

But what he did at Release , while he is typically thought to be Swinging there too, would be an interesting discussion. One that could take us Hitting given the existence of what Homer termed the X Classification Throws........the unlisted throws that Homer knew were out there but remained unidentified during his time.

Wanna get the lab coats on? How crazy you wanna get?

If you draw a line from his #3 pp at Top or End down to where they are in that second photo......it'd be nearly vertical line. This is "Vertical Drop". Plane Shift from a higher to a lower Plane Angle. Something he has to do given where his hands are at Top. If he left them way up there and Turned his Right Shoulder down towards the ball, his Hands would go immediately OUT over top of the Plane. Hes dropping those things and fast so that doenst happen. Trying to get back to place from where he can attack the ball from the inside. Inside Out Impact, the inside to out Delivery Line of the clubhead associated with an on plane , Straight Line Base Line (as opposed to the true Inside Outside Stroke , with its Closed Plane Line).

Fowler Ball
 

The more bent the Right Arm is at Impact the stronger the shot, treat the feel of after Impact as though it was Impact, even though the ball is gone. The "normal" position of the Arms (6-A-4)-that until after the Follow-Through, the Left Arm is never bent, the Right Arm is never straight. Does Fowler follow any of these concepts?

And how does one move his fully bent right Elbow down close to the ball if not via the turning of the Pivot the Right Shoulder specifically? The answer .....there is no other way.

Once the Arms separate from the Shoulders ......the Right Arm is Straightening and you're into Release. To Delay Release you must transport you fully bent Right Arm down to a later Release Point.

The Right Shoulder is so, so important. In fact Homer said we'd all come to feel like we were hitting the ball with our right shoulder.

bucket , I don't agree with this , these guys are snowing you , none of them can sniff Hogan

Speaking of sniffing . . . how's offspring treating y'all? Tried to tell you man!!!!

Talk to me about this Hogan stuff . . . . Not really worried about the hitting/swinging part but what about the right shoulder staying on top of the left arm? Junk? Maybe? or don't matter?

Not junk just the way it is given tsp or lower isn't it? You got photos of any pros with their hands or arms above their right shoulder in Release?

Look at how he tilts and pivots , I can see what you are saying

Not much time as ya told me, but I see that cox and abs forum has got you on hogan . What I see is the camera angle is promoting the deal you are seeing , however I'd say its how the left arm gets down that differentiates the swinger vs the hitter. With regard to hogan he sure hits some punchy shots like the one you put up when he played snead / 18th hole approach, however look at his full swings and tell me you see an elevated right shoulder / I see an externally rotated right shoulder , rounding off somewhat while his left side bend tilts more into the ball . Also note how its his pivot which is regaining flexion whilst rotating that shifts the left arm out a bit and then down, rather than launchpad and right shoulder pushing down on the left arm and note his right elbow move into a throwing postion / with right shoulder supporting

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxVUM...eature=related

That's not exactly what I'm trying to describe . .. but this would be kinda the opposite of it . . . Look at where the hands are in space . . . where they are in relationship to the right shoulder . . . where the club cuts the right arm on the way down . . the relationship of the left arm to the stance line when the left arm is approximately parallel to the ground . . . also look at the relationship of the angle of the left arm to the ground at deliveryish . . . Hogan's left arm is essentially vertical to the ground . . . Cink is out angled

A bad picture is worth a thousand word
 

Be careful in your analysis of camara angles.

Talk to me . . . . Best I could do fast on pulling it together . . .

How does this part work . . .

externally rotated right shoulder , rounding off somewhat while his left side bend tilts more into the ball . Also note how its his pivot which is regaining flexion whilst rotating that shifts the left arm out a bit and then down, rather than launchpad and right shoulder pushing down on the left arm

Thanks for the photos of Cink , Buck.

That first frame looks like a TSP to my eyes. Like his Right Shoulder is taking the Hands and clubshaft down "a" TSP. A steep one though, sort of like Jacks. Nothing like Hogan's flattish TSP angle.

The second frame when you look at the shaft angle it is super steep. No longer pointing at the Turned Shoulder position almost Turning Shoulder. But there's some shaft droop there so if you drew a line from the sweetspot to the #3 pp then maybe the Sweetspot Plane, the real Plane so to speak, is pointing more towards the Turned position of the Right Shoulder. Its a stretch I know....either that or he's shifted up to higher plane from the TSP.

Assuming he didnt shift up we're looking at a Single shift, no shift on the plane angle from Top to impact. Elbow then TSP at Top then down the TSP .......something Homer would have preferred to a Double Shift actually.......in the later editions....

You know the crazy thing is that Homer changed his ideas about the Elbow Plane as the editions progressed but to my mind didnt change some of the surrounding references to Elbow Plane. You know how he talks about starting the club back on the shaft and elbow plane...........in the audio tapes he throws that one out the window. Forget the shaft plane in startup actually you could say forget about the shaft laying on the inclined plane even.....though its part of 1-L ......he's talking clubhead plane (as opposed to shaft or LCOG) moving on the TSP up and down , Zero Shift. Dont hear about that too much...... He prioritized things with not shifting ranking higher than any benefit to the Elbow Plane or the Shaft laying flat on the Inclined Plane. As I hear him anyways. Not that you dont options of course , lots and lots of them. Trillions of useful options, multiple shifts included.

Maybe I heard wrong though ........I dunno.

Interesting language you're using there. Is that a dialect of TGM? Not sure I follow you , interesting stuff though , really. Im interested in what it is that drops the left arm down. You saying there's something in the pivot that drops the arms? As opposed to a vertical drop of the hands plain and simple. I dunno.

But I gotta say (again) , the left arm isnt on the inclined plane given any #3 angle so why would you want the right shoulder pushing the left arm down? Down to where? Somewhere above the ball? Anywhere in particular? Why not pushing the Power Package or the Hands or the #3 or the LCOG?

If you draw a line from the ball through the #3 pp I think you'll see Hogan as having his right shoulder on the same plane angle at Top and in the second photo , Startdown. Then in the third photo he's already in to release ......dont look at his left wrist cock look at his lengthening right arm........ its started .....4, 1, 2, 3 right? And since he's dropped to a lower plane the Hands are on a lower plane than the original TSP and the Right Shoulder has stopped moving towards the ball gone higher than the original TSP.

Or maybe Ive had too much egg nog? The camera angle is off there too but Ive seen Hogan;s hands lower than the TSP really early in a bunch of photos. Im thinking higher than TSP is way worse , than lower. WAY.

Here's a similar photo that shows the ball for any of you guys who know how to draw lines. A line from ball to #3pp will have the left arm above it. A line from right shoulder to left arm will extend out way above the ball no? I dunno.

have nothing to contribute other than thanking you lot.

I love it when you guys start 'chewing the cud'.

All of it done with respect too, never (or rarely) a cross word. Mature posters on LBG!

:smiley2304: :sleigh: :xmas-smiley-022:

had to get some christmas smilies in too!

Don't we normally have a christmas yoda at this time of year?:golfing_banana:

All you guys should just all get together with your dowels, driveway markers and strings somewhere and just work it all out and report back to us. It is amazing that after all these years on the forum we haven't moved foward on this issue have we? Reminds me of business meetings. Therefore it is time to form and have a committee meeting on this. Although in the past it was fun to experiment with different stuff it just doesn't make me a better golfer. all I want now is to select one way, one pattern that will do it for me. Something that I know if I can master and get consistent with, l good golf will result. Once you guys have reached a consensus then this opinion could be filed as permanent, something you can make book on and left alone.. . then on to other issues.

Isn't The Golfing Machine all about options and preferences? I think after the Imperatives, and for some the Essentials, everything is up for discussion and interpretation. We may never come to a consensus on everything else, and there's no problem with that IMHO.

Some will always prefer Hogan, some Snead, some Furyk, some Stack & Tilt... preferences are in a continual state of change as is the interpretation of science behind the physics of the golf swing... Fortunately, the Geometry is stable.

Kevin

I think it is very important that the right shoulder stays on top of something. Just not sure that it's exactly the right arm. I think it has more to do with the mass that is being moved. Which is right arm, clubshaft & clubhead. I think Hogan traps the primary assembly lever under the plane of his rotating shoulder.

It might also be interesting to look at pp#3 orientation. Difficult to spot on film but I wouldn't be surprised if pp#3 is more on the top of the shaft than with typical drive loading - and for longer than you expect with a swingers pp#3 rotation. As long as you keep pp#3 on top of things you can power a horizontal hinge.

If Hogan pulls hard with his left side, PP#2 will be directed straight towards his left shoulder socket. If pp# 1 & pp#3 "only" thrust on plane, there is no force that prevents the hands from being pulled above the inclined plane. And centrifugal force will probably do more of the same.

The combined pressure + centrifugal force will create a plane shift upwards and towards steeper.

So I am guessing here; but perhaps Mr Hogan has pp#3 partly on top of the shaft, and maybe his flat right shoulder turn that happens far above the hand path makes this possible.

This thread is getting a little weird. :bounce:

I think that 12 Pc. wants to know if a level-ish Downstroke shoulder turn has a greater influence on the player "going left" to stay On-Plane after Impact more than something else. In other words, he is wondering if an On-Plane Downstroke Right shoulder contributes to "Swinging out to Right Field"; defined as the Clubhead and Shaft rising above Plane after Impact.

That...is sooo Pivot Controlled Hands. :doh:

Although a Flat Right Shoulder Downstroke rotation WILL cause the Hands to "fire Left" after Impact, it does so at the expense of needing compensations for other critical Alignments. :nono:

Such As: Needing, a Sweep or Random Sweep Release to FORCE the Right Forearm back to its Impact Fix Angle of Approach BEFORE the Right Shoulder FORCES the Right Forearm to become to high at Impact which is a Hackers over the Top move. Certainly this can be adjusted to eventually become a fine Golf Swing. :think:

But really now; do we need another compensation? Rather than forcing the Hands and Right Forearm to comply with an off-Plane Right Shoulder, it makes more sense if we train the Right Shoulder comply and assist in achieving the critical Right Forearm Impact Alignment?

The Club won't swing above plane if the Player has "Rhythm". Hinging....through the Impact Interval will allow the Clubhead and Shaft to remain On-Plane until the Finish Swivel. :notworthy

Hinging is easy to perform on the Elbow Plane (because of the large pulley). If you want to try something a bit more challenging, then use the TSP (because of the infinitesimally small Pulley when using a Snap Release).

Thanks for setting the course D. Im just saying that a levelish shoulder turn as you put it.........makes the Right Shoulder not aligned to the base of the Plane in Startdown where it's dragging the Power Package .... You'd need a compensation of some sort to prevent the Sweetspot from following the above plane shoulder turn for that period. The period of Shoulder Acceleration.

In terms of when you should drop to a lower plane assuming you are going to: Id say the earlier the better. You want to give yourself as much time as possible on the Plane your going to make contact on. Hogan was "flat" at Top then dropped early.....hence the hands or left arm if you prefer under the right shoulder. Nice stuff. And not that much of a shift in terms of degrees.

Hey David.

Like Kev said you've got options but that said Homer did appear to have had a clear preference for the mechanical advantage of the TSP and therefore the Standard Shoulder Turn and that's what Lynn teaches I believe. Double or Single Shift Id guess with Single being the most common. Single if I had to pick one being the preferred in that its the simplest. Its a smogestboard of usable components but Homer had his preferences Id say .... Hands to Pivot and swinging the Hands not the Clubhead etc etc.

Its all here for the taking. Heres something I found quickly for you....let me keep on looking for more. Pt 2 is a must ....Pivot Lag, Taking out the Slack etc etc. All trained and ingrained with Startdown Waggles on the TSP.


Regards
Ob

Good stuff guys! :salut:

Kevin