When you use science to look at the " Mona Lisa" or "The Battle of Five Armies,"
 

What do you see? Some old guy's work or deep perceptions about the human condition worth hundreds of millions of dollars?

I've been to the Uffizi, pal and the Vatican. The "David" and Michelangelo's Pieta are transcendent and done without a computer through painstaking observation and skill. Can you see where I'm going with this?

Define absolute truth. I started at a 21 hcp. last March and I was 9 over for the second time in a week, today. It will be lower next time. I'm 52, 35 lbs too heavy, with one leg 1.75" longer than the other with an artificial hip and clone irons and If you spot me my hcp. on a neutral course, I'll beat you.

Define absolute truth. I have taught stock-brokers to a 95% pass rate for a Fortune 50 company on the series 7 licensing test, and third world kids in a computer class in North Philadelphia. Lynn Blake can teach as can people on this site about 100 times more effectively than BM in his best DVD.

Define absolute truth. I was in the top 1% of sales people for AMEX for two years in a row. I can sell and teach. BM can sell. BM has a salesman's grasp of teaching and TGM which is obvious in your missive and his tapes. His DVD's scripts are about the sale! I spent two months trying to decode his "schtick," until I realized I was being played.

The absolute truth of human anatomy has been understood for over a thousand years since doctors dug up cadavers to sketch muscle, tissue, and bone. TGM is about bio-mechanical observation and the plane of the golf swing. Do you want a "deeper truth?"

I'll define absolute truth for you. I'll send you my 12 step books and several titles on Chaos Theory. You send us your videos of your golf swing and we will post it here. In a year, with your best efforts, we will have your hcp reduced by 50% unless you are a scratch golfer. I am not, yet, but others here are. I can't teach what I cannot do, yet.


I have 3 of BM's dvd's. I'll sell them to you for a dollar each and you pay the shipping. That's a serious offer. Ph.D= piled high and deep.

BTW, the 'rigors' of science were used in building the superior race, right? That "pure" group demanded, like you are doing here, that the inferior be abolished. And wasn't science going to create "the new man" to lead the USSR to the people's utopia? Be careful of the science, buddy, that promises "absolute truth." Those are the promises of fanatics, not scientists.

Truth is what works in our human sphere. How can you be so negative about something you have not experienced?

If you read your last sentence it sounds like your doing exactly what your railing against, you should take some of your own advice. I mean were talking about the golfswing as it relates to science, or science as it relates to the golfswing.

Comparing it to some ideology from some crazies is just a bit of a dishonest analogy. You need to have an open mind and then make your own judgement, you could just learn something.

Flight Laws
 

Homer Kelly's view on flights laws at the time - are the laws of today the same?

no thanks
 

If it was more about learning and less about ego, I'm sure there would be more interest. I'd rather be taught than lectured.

How much more arrogant can one get? A man has been working hard at something, improving quickly, he's excited and thrilled, and you tell him it's wrong... That's my problem with your science.

Kevin

Mr. Kelley got it right without having to send us to a physics class to figure out his explanation.

Kevin

I would never go to a summit with scientists who cant break 100. If someone is going to teach the swing to me you better beat me. Didnt the NASA scientist pelz write books while some of his stats findings are priceless his teaching methods are awful. There are many ways to swing a golf club some easier than others some methods work some dont i will never never have a phd teach me anything until he wins a golf tournament and has been in the battle.

Hi Siksta,

I thought I heard that Dave Pelz was an excellent Golfer. I thought he played in college and did really well. Almost went pro. Maybe I'm thinking of someone else?

He played golf at Indiana the great golf powerhouse in 57 hmmmmmmmh. Lost to nicklaus 22 times almost turned pro dosent count, Triple A baseball dosent count, competing upon 10,000 poker players and finishing 9000 at the wsp. There's PGA.LPGA,CHAMPIONS, AND NATIONWIDE no such thing as mini tour if you play on tour and you win i'm listening.

According to stats Golf books are the most saturated sports book in all sports combined and only 2% are even writen or edited by actual tour pros the rest well no explanation - hence the word propaganda.

Anytime someone promises "absolute truth," they are lying.
 

I'm sorry you don't understand what I'm speaking about. As a teacher, I teach up first or try to see who has the most understanding.

The heart of the 12 step movement and my life is seeking help from the HP (higher power) and accepting it. In other words, we all have limitations and only Deity has the ABSOLUTE TRUTH. Therefore, if we are all limited, we are all equal and in need of each other and bound, morally, to accept and work with each other. All have dignity and all people have some divine talent or insight. It's my code and I'm sticking with it. :)

All you read was my last sentence and you made no attempt to follow the context or understand the point. In other words, you are guilty of the mistake you say I am making. You made a "dishonest analogy."

Intrinsic in the claim of "absolute truth" is the fanatic's inferiority complex. Why else would someone discard what is very effective, unless they didn't understand it? Put it this way, "the enemy of the good is the perfect."



* Le mieux est l'ennemi du bien.
o The better is the enemy of the good.
+ La Bégueule (1772)
+ Variant translations:

The perfect is the enemy of the good.
The best is the enemy of the good.
+ Note: This quotation also appears in Italian (Il meglio è l'inimico del bene) in the Questions sur l'Encyclopédie article, "Dramatic Art" (1764)


What I would've enjoyed from that fanatic was a simple invitation based in reality and the necessary humility which would logically flow from a human being. Something like, "TGM is very effective in what it teaches. Technology is improving since TGM has been written. We are having a conference to discuss how new insights might impact some of TGM's observations. Maybe y'all would like to check it out."

"Footwedge," you are a funny person based on your note here. You didn't answer or address my central point: what is truth in any field, including golf and how do you come to it? I guess you felt that a superficial attack would hide your misunderstandings and your failure to comprehend my point.

Are you a politician or lawyer, or perhaps, you work for a politician that plays a lot of golf and wishes to be "flashy," and not really effective? Perhaps you make your living by trading in dishonest analogies and sounding off to obscure what is effective so that you can be noticed?

Here is another basic idea. Technology can be a great thing or a really crappy thing. Technology helped some scientists decide that DDT could poison rats given massive doses and might poison humans. As a result, Africa is ravaged by Malaria. Technology helps lots of dictators control funds given by UN food programs in "hidden" bank accounts so that their people are enslaved with a shortage of food. BLAHBLAHBLAH...who doesn't get this?

Technology has helped make a lot of golf courses obsolete and so, there are new standards for tour wedges, backing away from "improved technology."

You can see the DNA and miss the fact that the person is hungry.

The big picture and the details are both important concepts. Interdependence is better (people who need people... and people who can go it alone when needed...whole people, emotionally) than dependence or independence, imho.

One last point you missed FW, is that I have spent considerable time and effort with BM and LBG. You want me to have an "open mind?" So I can go back to a 28 hcp.? Did I hurt your feelings by indicating my mistrust of BM? Everyone has a belly button and is entitled to their opinions unless you have the "absolute truth," right?

Do you have a golf hcp.? Is there a system that would reduce a 21 hcp. to a single digit hcp. in 6 months that you are aware of and have tried?

My offer to you is the same offer extended to CMS. Post your videos. Let us see your swing and if you would like help, there are many friendly, insightful people here on this site who could help anyone's swing or hit.

And if you are in my area, and spot me my hcp...:laughing9

Have a happy learning day, FW. :)

BTW, go Brian Gay! 112 to 12 in one year! That TGM, I guess, is pretty effective stuff!

You are presumptuous! I started learning TGM in 2003 from various camps, and it did not take me to the mountaintop. My handicap is lower than yours:golf: I'm glad that the LBG variant of TGM was able to help you so much, but please CALM DOWN! I was once an evangelical believer like you but, but now I sit in the back pews as a doubtful churchgoing agnostic.

When I first started to learn TGM, it was presented as SCIENCE. Now, some of the same people are taking jabs at modern day golf science.

A 2010 Homer Kelly would have all the latest 3D gear, and would have several scientist on speed dial. A guy that edited his Opus 7 times would not sit back marveling at his work; He would be constantly improving it with new ideas.

I would like to see a new yellow book written by a panel of scientist and golf instructors. The scientist will provide the facts, and the instructors will make the information palatable to the average golfer.

:naughty: ChangeMySwing:naughty:

You need to learn to read, as i never said he was wrong i said he might just learn something. This is the typical knee jerk re-action from a closed minded person, always defensive, what are you scared of science?

Nice bait and switch, you must be a lawyer and or politician.
 

And you are accusing me of the shortcomings of "footwedge," who claimed to have "absolute truth," and you haven't answered my challenge. Why don't you try LBG? Give it a shot. "Various camps," are not LBG. Were you a BM guy?

Again, you did not really think before writing. How disappointing.

I wonder what you mean by an "evangelical believer?" If I can change my tires and my oil and fix my brakes so that I save $1000 dollars and my car passes state inspection, now watch the thought process here, and I bless my dad and grandfather who taught me how to do it, am I an "evangelcal believer," or skilled at those things? Take a moment before you try to answer.

Ok, let me help you, again. You can "win" this discussion by your thoughtlessness. Congratulations. Good luck!

Post your vids so we can be in awe and learn from you. :)

Talk about been arrogant, then why 7 editions with changes and additions if it is so right? Scared of the truth? Have you heard the world is round not flat and Homer made mistakes, he's human and he would be the first to admit them unlike yourself. Talk about arrogant!

How do you know it's more about ego than learning, you are making assumptions with no proof as the symposium hasn't even taken place. Seems to be a pattern of resistance for no reason based in reality.

Can you define the benefit of learning?
 

Follow your own advice and read, think, look! Tell us your story, show us your vids, prove something with some measure of effectiveness.

Show us your "absolute truth," that contradicts what LBG and TGM teach. Please don't whine like a little kid, though, and expect it to get you somewhere.

BTW, I'm getting ready for school to get started so capitalize your "i" to an "I." :)

Another twisting of words, point out where i said i have the absolute truth, I said you might learn something and you can make your own judgement. Then again i guess you already know everything and are never wrong about any of it. You need to work on your analogies they are a bit off.

How many teachers on the tour can beat their Pga students? Can Yoda beat Brian in a tour event? Is he Brian's coach/teacher? Your example just doesn't hold water, koolaid maybe.

Homer Kelley wasn't a golfing professional either.

And Pelz could play and probably could have beaten most of us from time to time.

Homer came up with much better conclusions, concepts and ideas than say Ben Hogan...arguably the greatest ballstriker that ever lived....did in '5 Lessons.' Pelz is a smart guy, but his studies were scientifically flawed and led to flawed conclusions. The 'optimal putting speed' (17" past the cup) was poorly researched beyond belief.

The big thing I learned from Pelz and TGM is just because a person is labeled a scientist, doesn't mean that they researched their work accurately and scientifically and they are not prone to errors. Homer Kelley understood that and that's why he had 7 editions. There's no doubt in my mind that he would take in new information that was found to be more accurate and do a mea culpa. OTOH, Pelz doesn't seem to want to do that (the most I've seen him bend is on the SBST stroke vs. the Arced Stroke).

A large part of science is about trial and error, then observation. It's not in a vacuum where a scientist comes up with a theory and is always 100% correct. I feel like the crowd that is into bashing TGM and never really saying a good word about it have that idea that a scientist should always be right. I'm far more interested in the scientist that comes up with concepts and understands that they may not be 100% accurate and will need some tweaking to fully understand the truth.






3JACK

Interesting post, Richie.
I align with TGM because it has worked for me. It works for me personally and it is working very well for the kids I assist through coaching activities.
The discussion about whether or not TGM is scientifically based is one in which I will not participate. I take it at face value and come to LBG every day to learn more from those that know what they are writing about.
Thanks for everything to all of you TGMers that contribute to this. Without this, the golf portion of my life would still be in what I consider my Dark Ages.
Regards.

...and you wonder why nobody wants to attend your anti-golf symposium. WOW, sounds like fun.

Kevin

Does you mom know you are using the computer?
 

In order to have friends, you must be a friend. Post a video and we'll talk about it. :)

Footwedge and Changemyswing - Y'all are welcome here and we've been down this path so many times it's not worth getting spun up about.

This site and Lynn's teaching continue to decode Kelley's work. Without a complete understanding of Kelleys TGM, it is difficult if not impossible to apply current science to the facts. You have to have a complete understanding first and then go test it. Other teachers have facts and are applying science to them. That's great! But if they don't have their facts straight then the science is only verifying misinformation.

I'm not pointing fingers at anyone in particular, in fact the majority of golf science is likely rooted in bad assumptions to begin with.

There is a place for both.
Good fundamental facts and current science to illuminate it further.

Science doesn't verify misinformation it disqualifies it. You have an idea or a theory than you put it to a series of tests to prove it or disprove it, with no predujice towards the results, some things can be right and some can be wrong or all can be right or all can be wrong. Homer's work falls in the first of those.

Science verifies a hypothesis. If the hypothesis is fundamentally flawed, then whatever conclusions are drawn are suspect or also flawed.

As a general policy, we don't disparage other teachers on this site. It's been so long since we've had a "camp" war, I thought all of this was behind us. Looks like this is headed in the wrong direction.

I'll close by saying, I hope Brian and Mike have a successful seminar and that they do indeed advance the knowledge of TGM.

This thread is closed.