Bear
Imagine your on the tee box and your buddy is in your vision to the side and u ask him to move? Dosent matter if there was sun, a shadow you have the right to move him?

The problem is one of us has bad ears.
We need to review WHAT HE SAID to the spectator.
The EXACT WORDS please.



The "listening" bear

I didn't tape it. Not that it matters, but enlighten me. The crowd was stacked up and I'm sure it was very difficult for anyone to move much. I saw flashes of light as though a spectator was moving. The player simply wanted them to stay still in the same position to eliminate the flashes. Maybe I have bad ears, but it was very easy to see what was happening.

Do you feel he moved somebody into position through the crowd, I didn't see that, or did he simply want someone to stay still?

I keep watching and waiting for the announcement of a DQ. Perhaps the officials didn't hear what you heard?

Kevin

If i recall there was no sun then when he went to adresse it someone moved causing daylight and said keep still or make it all shadow and block it?

Thats what I saw, I am anxiously awaiting the revelation of what I didn't hear...

Kevin

Look for U tube
 

This is best I can find for now.

Did Dustin Johnson accidentally violate 14-2 as well as 13-4?
August 15, 2010
by John
.[UPDATE] I got word from an official at the PGA that Johnson asked for the area to be all shade which is different than asking that just the lie of the ball be shaded.

[FINAL UPDATE] In reflecting on this, I can see why Johnson should not be penalized for having the crowd move around to block the sunlight. Since he was in the middle of the crowd and there was continual movement, he should be able to get everyone to stand still. With the one shaft of light there, he was constantly going to be disturbed by any movement. It was either that or get the crowd to back up to the point where there were no shadows which was impractical. Therefore, just getting the entire area shaded was the best way to resolve the issue.

With a one-shot lead on the 18th hole, today, Dustin Johnson hit his tee shot way right into the crowd. After the crowd was cleared he was left with a shot over the hazard to the green. The spectators were standing around the ball and there was a sliver of sunshine on his ball. Johnson said something about it. Someone asked if he wanted the sunshine blocked and it sounded like he said “Yes, block it.”

There is a new decision in 2010, 14-2/2.5, which states that in part:

While a player may not place an object or position a person for the purpose of blocking the sunlight from his ball, he may ask a person (e.g., a spectator) who is already in position not to move, so that a shadow remains over the ball, or to move, so that his shadow is not over the ball.

When he finished the round, he was spoken to by the officials.

I don’t know if that is what is going on or if they say he grounded his club in the bunker? He definitely grounded his club in the sand area there. I don’t know which violation they are calling, but he is out of the playoff.

UPDATE: Mark Wilson from the PGA has just explained that all areas designed as bunkers were bunkers even if outside the ropes and that he therefore grounded his club in the bunker and is penalized two strokes under Rule 13-4.

I’ve written before about how removing bunkers from the rules. Yet another reason do so.

Dustin handled the interview with class just now. He mentioned that he should have read the local rule more closely, but could also have called the rules official that was walking with the group before playing.


"Looking for U tube" Bear

His biggest mistake was hitting driver on the hole when he needed a par to win. It was a 469 yard hole with an uphill drive. A shot 250 yards in the fairway gives him 219 into the green. A long way out, but it makes no difference from the fairway when you need a par. For him, that is a 5 iron. Nicklaus would have hit 1 iron to stay in the fairway. Dustin Johnson, Bubba Watson, need a shot with a club that will put them in the fairway out about 250 yards. That used to be sop for pros, when you have a one stroke lead and need par to win, get in the fairway off the tee.

Thanks Bear for that info.

Excellent find bear. Have you ever seen 14-2/2.5 before? Thank goodness "John" was able to help you out with this conundrum.

Kevin

sorry bout that- Lack of proper attribution- my bad.
no excuse but I just cut and past from a long series of articles- should have provided link.

When I saw/heard it on TV the situation went to my head. But No I can not quote the rule numbers.


The "careless" Bear

no they didn't. he should have never been over there in the first place. maybe this is why we high handicappers do not get any better. So much instruction on proper plane...no instructions on the rules and proper course management. If im Dustins or Bubbas caddy...they are hitting an iron. I would have told them both your not fucking up my check today. hit the damn iron in the fairway. geez they hit 5 iron well over 230 what the hell were they thinking. Cant remember who Breeder was interviewing Friday... but he said that the problem with the new generation is they do not know how to manage their ball. And he was right. As well as my father. Golf is a thinking mans/women sport. idiots need not apply. iron,iron, two putt victory! that's what the guest Breeder interviewed said! And what did Dustin do...I screamed when he chose driver. But the media will make a big fuss about the rules and how they are stupid (no articles about a weak caddy...hell they could have let him sign the wrong scorecard and he would have won jack! The PGA did him a favor. He at least got the fed ex points and a check, Dustin should be sending the officials some money and a thank you note! And handing his caddy a pink slip. But he still hit the shot...Whew. Sorry for the rant... that was hard to watch.

Amen! Soul Brothers!
 

I believe someone with a level head, who can read, and knows the rules of golf, should offer to be DJ's and or Bubba's manager. Can you imagine how those guys would benefit from a man or woman who could speak to them and walk with them on the course to give them the big picture? Hold up little signs like "Geeze, $1,000,000 or so plus the Master's and exemptions out the wazoo for the next couple of years, and endorsements would really be nice after a simple par!" Or, "Less is more, honest.!" :)

What a fun part time/full time job! Kevin, you would be great at it! Great name, Max!

Patrick

I dont blame the officials in any way. The local rule is what it is , be it good or bad.

In fact I kind of have a hunch the officials steered D.J. away from his original assertion that he hadnt grounded the club .........and all that would have entailed, which would have been catastrophic.

On the other hand.....
 

It is not likely that I would have paid as much attention to the event if it were not for the play and position of Steve Elkington. He sure does give one something to calibrate what is happening against. I bet he had a good time. Looks like the type of guy you'd like to sit down and have a beer (or 6) with.

The Bear

A couple of last thoughts i love how the announcers call this pressure- what pressure there millionaires!Its the same as you and me playing for $5, Watson,McIlroy,Gay,Johnson etc etc are rich and have endorsement deals whats the big deal between 500k they dont have the drive even Johnson admitted he was trying to make Ryder Cup team i honestly believe pressure dosent make mistakes its the swing there's only a handful of ballstrikers on tour. We had hickory era then persimmon and steel era now titanium or bomb and find the ball era.8 to 10 wins in a row never again not because of parity because of the swing.

The responsibility for being informed/aware begins and ends with the golfer...no question about that...but two things still bother me...where was his caddie to inform him of the situation?...where else is the gallery allowed to stand in a "bunker" with a player?

HG,

This was discussed last night by Pete Dye on the Breed show. There are bunkers EVERYWHERE off the fairways. If they didn't allow spectators to walk through the bunkers, they wouldn't have been able to allow spectators on the grounds. Just a very unique golf course.

Kevin

I've only caught a bit of the details on this, but had a question for those that watched it.

Was there a rake in the 'bunker'?

Is there any official or local rule about having rakes available in an area deemed a 'bunker' vs a waste area?

Seems to me the standard is that having a rake signals bunker, not having one signals waste area.

(especially when the crowd is allowed to walk in/on the area, which as far as I know, spectators aren't usually allowed to walk in any areas considered bunkers).

Regardless, a sad outcome for Dustin, one that I'm sure he and his caddy won't make again.

Ed,

Does the this rule, given to every competitor change your view on what they considered a bunker for the week?

Kevin

I guess the question is, how can a player know if an area was designed as a bunker, or as a waste area, if the gallery is allowed to walk there, and there are no rakes?

Unless it was also clear that there were no areas considered waste areas on the course? or that any area with sand was to be considered a bunker?

Not only allowed to walk in the bunkers but also allowed to stand in them while a player is hitting. I imagine it would've been hard to identify that as a bunker even without spectators covering most of it.

That local rule reads to me as if they are primarily addressing the issue of relief, not what is and isn't a bunker. A sandy area caused by spectator traffic would not fall under the definition of a bunker in that local rule, as it would not have been a designed hazard.

So the course is not spectator-friendly...sounds like the PGA compromised on its selection...if players have to share bunkers with spectators. However you slice it...the PGA looks like bad guys on this one...and the fans missed out on a 3-way playoff...and Dustin missed out on redemption...fortunately he is young enough to get over it:)

All the players were warned beforehand that if they were in something sandy, it would probably be a hazard. And it wasn't excactly written with fine print either.

They can read, can't they?

That's just it. If the rule had said "all sandy areas are considered bunkers", I'd be with you 100%.

Given the area was completely covered with people, there were no rakes, and the rule only talked about 'areas designed as bunkers', I just don't see a clear way players could determine what was and wasn't considered a bunker.

No markers, no rakes, a large crowd, foot prints.

And a young player trying to focus and win after a tough finish in the U.S. Open.

How many of those who watched it looked at his lie and said to themselves "hey, he's in a bunker"?

Not many I'd bet, since you couldn't see his surroundings much with all the people.

What would a reasonable person assume based on what you saw on tv before he finished 18 and learned about the ruling?

I understand the rule, and I understand the ruling, but I don't think it was reasonable at all and I think Dustin got screwed.

But for the fact that he directed a "spectator(s)" to block the sun, Which is another rule he clearly violated , and was not called on it. I MIGHT agree some. But it evened out or worked to his advantage.

The Bear

Final Ruling Pertaining To Blocking The Sunlight