The reason I am pretty sure it is not pulling is the fact that Hogan himself talkes about not activating the tendons in the left arm other than in his last three fingers. If you look at most photos of Hogan from a left side impact view he is not even flexing in his left arm. Watch the video below @ 1:33 you will see the club face look to the sky from its past position. This is the right wrist bowing I am talking about. Now to the pulling, if Hogan pulls the club to the inside where his hands disaper that shuts down the face, but he is pushing with the right hand and rotating with the ride side which pushes or pulls the left side clear if the left arm pit stays connected. Apples and Oranges there, but you can see what I mean.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fsl7aozegEM

Hey Burley

What if he pulled but not so much with his left arm say but with his body, his left arm being like an inert rope? A stretched out rope running between the left shoulder and the outwardly extending right arm. Then the left arm muscles would be relaxed except for the strong hold in the last three fingers and the engaged tendons attached to them.

It's possible! I just think that he knew OTT came from the left side in his swing and he could apply push/rotation with the strong side and felt comfortable of not missing it left, while having full control of the club face and power. "The left arm is a NERD"!

Watch this video, this is what Hogan felt if you look at his swing it's dofferent but thats feel! It vary's to each person! The part I want you to watch is when he says "most people do it wrong and start the swing with the upper body".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL_6M_xZvq0

Hi Burley,

What is the difference between yours and Mr. Gary Edwin's on Hogan right-side swing concept?

BTW, what is your opinion why Hogan's right foot slided so much even with iron shots?

Back to this original topic, the magical device book, the writer focus on how Mr. Hogan's power package attached to the rotating torso...it is not something new, even with the word "magical" added. I prefer the "Magic of the right forearm" though.

Hope I have chance to read your book soon.

Hello KOC-

To be honest I had never heard of Gary until I just Google him. I watched a few of his video's and liked what I saw, other than that I guess you have to pay to joing his website to learn what his teachings are about right side golf.

What makes Hogan's right foot slide? Well the basic answer would be force but the answer you are looking for in my own words has to be the right knee. I think once the rigth knee starts to fold the spikes are useless as the foot rolls in, but! Hogan knew this and was on a firm left leg. I think he tried to use the inner toe spikes later in the down swing so the foot did not slip, but could not fully because it would hinder the motion of the right hip "Humping The Goat as yall call it". So as he used the last little bit of leverage he had in the right foot or toe to keep from falling back right, the momentom of the everything pulls the foot foward just a little as he then proceed's to post on it for a balanced finish. I hope that helps, if you see something else I would love to hear.

Just to add a quick note for the left side crowd that feel Hogan might have pulled with the left, it is pretty hard on a firm left side to pull with the left. Just for laughts stand on you left leg and lean to the right and try to turn you left hip clear... The right foot, Right Knee, right hand push through - the right hip, right shoulder rotate through! IMO

I'd submit that there is one reason why his right foot slides . . . put your cursor on his left hip at addesss . . . watch where his body is when he finishes . . . Hogan's hips went farther forward than anybody that's ever laced 'em up. That foot is getting DRUG forward by the hip motion, thighs and spine . . . Greg Norman rocks it like that too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNgIE...=related&pos=1

In the set of Hogan's photos that were used in the Life Magazine secret issue, Hogan played a shot standing on kind of mattress...From start up through delivery, you can see the left foot sinking more than the right foot...



It can be related to "The Hogan Way" book in which Mr. John Andrisani mentioned about a "story" Mike Austin told him about Hogan pivoting along the left leg and foot like Jay Broune...and of course, it is also presented in other way out of the book "Final missing piece of Hogan secret Puzzle" by VJ Trolio.

Regarding the siding, when I do the stepping drill, it is so easy to perform the right foot silde. If I push with the right side, it won't.

Just my 2 cents.

Someone told me it was felt, kinda like whats under your shingles on a roof, they did not think it would tear up that easy.

I feel the step drill would be a great way to feel the slide, although I still think Hogan's foot slide came mostly from the right knee, right side drive. The right knee actualy drives the foot to its instep and as the right side rotation is being completed it moves the right knee closer to the left closing that gap and makes the right heel post as it supernates.

Also, I talked to a friend of yours that said you meet in Hong Kong and he told me you are a great guy, with all the video you wanta to watch..lol I would agree from what I have read and seen of your stuff.

Burley,

Which friend? Who said that I am a good guy, Ben? Paul? I am a hacker...lol

Anyway, from the book "Hogan by Curt Sampson", there is a quoted statement:-

"You know why I'm so goddamn good? I never move my right knee." -Ben Hogan to his caddy

Yes, I also read the book "Afternoon with Mr. Hogan" saying the secret is the right knee push toward the ball...but when I watch Mike Wright told the story that Hogan asked him to bend on the knee behind a girl helping her game, to hold her right knee during the swing, I have questions in my hacker's mind.

The right knee definitely move...another chicken and egg question....move or being moved?
The right side shall support the backward spin tilt, no doubt just like Bruce Lee kick...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_GP4...e=channel_page

It was Paul...! That Bruce Lee is a good one, great vid!

I have talked to Mike Wright about Hogan, I ran some of my thoughts by him before I finished my book and he liked what I had to say. Mike believes Hogan's biggest Secret was his club spec's and the fact he had so much Flex in his wrist. KOC, you know what I think Hogan's Secret was, if you want to call it that. You have read as much of my stuff as I have of yours and I have stayed pretty consistant to what I believe. The back of the right wrist is my thought and after hearing Mike and talking to him about it, then listing to what he had to say...

Back to the right knee though, there are so many ways to look at it and even in video its really more of an educated guess. I think we would both agree on the right knee kicked in @ address, almost straiting by the top, and then folding in on the down swing. Now, was he a rotary/Pusher? I think so!, but I also know that I could be wrong and if thats true, that would take everything I believe or have learned about his swing an distroy everything I think I know.

Burley,

Thanks for the information. I really appreciated that. Although here is a guy who live in the far east, we love the same guy...Mr. Ben Hogan.

This was a very big part of Knudsons teaching. For the right foot to slide, the weight must be left early. Also George really believed in the Three Stations, Address, Top and Finish. He would have a person stand in their Finish position and try to figure where it was uncomfortable for them. His reasoning was that it should be very comfortable or else your body wont go there. He then adjusted things, like the turn of the left foot at address for instance. The right foot drag takes a lot of stretch out of lower body for those that are less flexible and makes getting to Finish way easier and more comfortable.

Knowing Knudson
 

Very interesting, O.B. Canadian George Knudson was one of the finest ball strikers of his generation. I was privileged to watch him play at The Masters and several of the southeastern PGA TOUR stops. Thanks for this insight!

:salut:

I got his video . . . there's some really nice slow mo footage of him with one of the grid dealies like the Hogan footage to check out. I think I even got his book somewhere. dude had a nice motion.

Ya, that sequence against the grid is interesting, big slide of the hips. He was gone not long after that was shot. The book and the video are kinda different in content but basically he taught pivot and passive hands. I do like his foot drag thing however and use it whenever I have trouble getting left. No doubt something he learned from Hogan. He used to go down to Seminole with Hogan and George Coleman to practice before the Masters in the early 60's. Made a study of all things Hogan even his club specs were similar.

Hah, just three weeks ago you saw me drag my right foot slightly with a driver and exclaimed "KNUDSON !". We never talked about it at the time, but I knew that you knew, that I knew that......

Ill be thinking about you this week Yoda. All the best.

i worked alot with mac ogrady and he definately has that right foot slide as do i with the longer clubs to me all it comes from is simple hogan like me or alot of other players has his legs together in the finish theres no space and they are even it makes me think of doyles catch the dogs tail through the ball in the finish. If you look at the short irons hogan doesnt do it long clubs he does as does knudson seems obvious to me its because the longer clubs he as do i and knudson have wide stances to get the legs together requires the right foot to slide towards the left if the stance is to wide. Also in regards to is hogan a swinger i verse burleys definition of a rotary pusher in my mind hogan is homers definition of a swinger there is different ways to start that swinging motion. T me hogan has the simplest and purest way he gets his weight left in the beginning of his swing some call it a bump but to me he just gets his left knee over his left foot wich involves some rotation as his hands go down his angle of approach down out and forward at the same time then his right elbow gets back to his side and he fires through the ball with his core hips shoulders his whoe pivot and the club releases because of cf a true snap release. watch this clip over and over its so sweet and simple http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJdChWnxDvU&NR=1

BB,

Agree . . . . LOVE that clip . . . Could you comment on the arm motion there. Hogan's arms work with his body. I was making some "baseball" type swings yesterday. It's kinda like that's how your arms HAVE TO work to keep your hands moving on that horizontal plane with out shifting them up and down . . . concentric circles huh?

Holla!

B

I recently had a chance to read the book (Hogan's Magical Device) and I think Ted Hunt is on to something.

I've not heard mention of the type of release move he describes before, and it doesn't really fit 1-L per se because the move is in the wrist, not the forearm.

All I know is it works, and it works VERY well.

There are two main parts to what he calls the secret. The first is what TGM would call the power package, and rhythm.

The second, he calls the secret within the secret. The left hand release - it is not an uncock/roll - it is the arching of the left wrist by rolling the WRIST, not the forearm.

I would call it more of a 'motorcycle release' - the left wrist arches by rolling it forward, away from you, like you were turning the handle on a motorcycle.

That move let's you use a weak grip, 10-2-A, and cup the left wrist at the top. The release can be done very quickly, so you can hold the angle deep into pitch elbow. The 'roll' is on plane, but it is away from you, triggered by squeezing the last three fingers. He also confirms the use of the left knee to begin the downswing, the so called 'Snead squat' or sit down move.

I tried this out yesterday and compressed the ball very, very well. Quite easy to hit a fade that never goes left.

For the Hogan fans out there, there are some nice stories in the book.

Between this book and VJ's, I can do Hogan's pattern quite nicely now. I've also just gotten a copy of "The Hogan Collection" which is worth the 2nd DVD alone - a series of Hogan swings from multiple angles and times.

Ola Ed,

Swingers Non-Automatic Simultaneous Release with 10-2-A & 10-18-B and can be used with circle Path Delivery.

I don't consider it equal to TGM Automatic Sequenced Release because neither version uses the #3 Accumulator. But it doesn't take 50 years to learn either. The Automatic version, for use with a Straight Line Delivery Path - Hip Action Triggers the Throw-Out; Uncock and Roll Simultaneously.

In Hogans situation, he released so early that he didn't slam the Shaft into a Primary Lever and Hinge for TGM Throwaway prevention. If he did, then his left arm would have moved away from his chest.

I follow you on the non-auto release, but circle delivery? At least in my testing, I found it much easier to have a true straight line delivery from top.

Hogan released early? perhaps sweep, but early?

I think the sweep was a 'rebound' from the snap loading.

Perhaps worth a new thread....

Somebody tell the guys at the Lab to stay open late............we got another one of D's posts coming in.

10-4, copy that, code D.

Hmm...

I agree with Ed about everything he said.

Ed,

My statement that 10-2-A & 10-18-B with Circle path was just to say that it's compatible. I didn't mean to imply that it's recommended.

Hogans 10-2-A & 10-18-B released earlier than a "Snap Release". Elbow Plane.

Hogan didn't allow his upper left arm to move away from his chest. His Pivot compensated by Locating his Right Elbow further forward on-plane for Release and Impact but not Follow-through. Hence, the slight amount of Throw-Away we often observe.

We'll never know if Hogan treated the Left Arm and Clubshaft as a Primary Lever and the Left Shoulder as a Hinge Pin. But it seems, after watching about every video of him that I could find, that he used his Head as the Center of which everything Rotated. ??

I'm just pulling your check rein D.

But by way of an apology and If you'll allow this Canuck to paraphrase your favourite son. "Perhaps I didnt calibrate my words quite as well as I could have. How about I crack another Molson while you get on with the teachable moment".

So Hogan:
-wasnt a true swinger?
-was "swinging left"? A manipulation of the entire clubs orbit to the inside. I read somewhere that Hogan was always trying to get his buddy Jackie Burke to keep his left arm on his chest longer through the ball. Remember the Ed Sullivan drill where Hogan wants you to attach your elbows to your side.
-triggered his release early? A manipulation of the release point. Any idea what type of throw he employed?
-was actively Hinging. A manipulation of the clubface.


Why did Homer say the 10-18-B was restricted to true Centrifugal Force swings. I get that it is Throwaway prevention in that it is the opposite horizontal wrist motion, but I dont get why you couldnt do it and apply a conscious hinge action, clubface manipulation. Maybe I dont fully understand what constitutes a true swing, I think it to be a CF induced Throwout with an unbridled Horizontal Hinge resulting. I dunno.

I didnt realize Venturi ever revealed the secret? What did he say?

Thanks

No apology needed. I'm Vapid. :laughing9 Let's have a beer anyway. :occasion:



Ya know; if we take Hogan seriously about what he said and did on the Ed Sullivan Show, then I don't understand how anyone could confuse him with a Hitter. Or, at least a Hitter as defined by TGM. There are some who have "re-defined" Hitter to mean anyone who "fires" through Release and Impact; whatever the heck that's supposed to mean. It can mean anything.



I don't know enough to know for sure.


Restricted to True CF Swings because the Left Arm and Clubshaft are Longitudinally Aligned during the Downstroke and Release and only CF can Uncock the Left Wrist while simultaneously Unbending the Left Wrist with both actions and keep the Clubshaft and Clubhead remaining on Plane and Pointing at the Same Plane Line (Trace). It takes big Cahoonas to keep the Left Palm Facing (Paddlewheeling) the ball all of the way to Impact. Though CF uncocks and rolls the Left Wrist Simultaneously, and you may learn to trust this, it's truly a weird sensation. Any, even the most minor attempt, to interfere with CF, completely wrecks the Strike. Your Left Palm actually passes the ball before uncocking and Rolling begins. So, you Hit the Ball with the Palm of your Left Hand. Snap-Release.

Like Ed said; great compression. And, the Swoosh occurs only one foot before the ball. So, it's Swoosh-Crack. A true three dimensional Impact. I can't get the sound any other way.

Throwaway Prevention: :study:
I think that HK said that 10-18-B "inhibits" Clubhead Throwaway because of what happens when the Left Wrist returns to "Flat and Vertical".

The Clubshaft (secondary lever) can slam into the Primary Lever (left Arm and Clubshaft) in a way that the Left Wrist Cannot Re-Bend. I could show you and you'll be doing it in 10 seconds but I don't think I can explain it.

Anyway, I don't think that the above is the Hogan Swing. He Released too early and I think he used the Non-Automatic Version. eh? but what do I know?

Dude, Im so VApid too but I love it when you say "eh?". Ah those chi hawks have nice jerseys eh? For sure. Patrick Kaine.

There is a lot of meat there, even for a guy like me who likes to BBQ naked but I honestly dont see the early release for Mr Hogan. It's a cool observation though given his "three right hands" comment and all. Maybe you got something there. I dunno.

Thanks for the very insightful reply.

This is what Im wondering about right now too. This is worthy of a separate thread I think. Can you rope handle it back and then down in transition and then axe handle an on plane right hand throw? Call me crazy.

Another Vapid Post about the Three Right Hands
 

How can you feel pressure against the Right Hand when the Upper Left Arm Doesn't move Away from the Chest during Release and Impact?

Besides: we all KNOW, that to FEEL (the brain to sense) any Right Hand pressure that it must occur long before the FEELING was sensed.

The "extension of the Swing Radius" in the above quote is the Left Hand moving away from the Pivot Center (Head). Generally, for Swingers, Hip Action Throws the Power Package at Release (Flywheel); Shoulder Throw (Primary Lever), which in turn, Wrist Throw (Secondary Lever).

You can Feel this effect under the following Conditions: The #4 Accumulator (Left Arm Across the Chest), using a stiff Left Arm (push), as it moves away from the Chest in a Sweep Release during the Downstroke, while maintaining a strong sense (real) of Pivot Lag and using the #2 Pressure Point to sense Clubhead Lag.

In a Sweep Release, Hip Action begins at Start Down and therefore, does not spin a Flywheel at Release (Hence, no sit-down in Hogans Pivot). It Throws the Left Arm (the Power Package including the Right Arm) during the Downstroke. The Down, in the Downstroke is minor.

The Pressure that Hogan felt in his Right Hand was the Slowing of the Left Hand. This is my Theory of the Three Right Hands.

eh..by the way, this is Pivot Controlled Hands.

Who is that in these pictures? It is not Mr. Hogan...