With that recommendation I will avoid pivot powered hands like the plague!

Trace this! :naughty: :laughing9

:golf:

Kevin

Filling in the (a)void.
 

How about making that, "I will avoid pivot "contolled" hands like the plague!"

:laughing9 :laughing9 :laughing9

Thanks Drew!

Kevin

wristy business, not
 

Swinging the clubhead and watching or monitoring the clubhead are two of golfs most common and damaging procedures. And my former self was an expert at both, sadly. The first supplying no structure and much wobble. The second tending towards the straight back , straight through "covering" rather "tracing" of the plane line. You can get pretty good doing those two things but one thing you will not be is terribly consistent (or on plane either).

Swinging the hands not the clubhead was a major eye opener for me. I thought I knew the difference but didnt at all. Yoda can demonstrate the difference in a second but to discuss it verbally is a chore. The flat left wrist , the flying wedges, the frozen right wrist, the hands as clamps, no wobble at the club attachment , pressure points, firm grip pressure being the solution to the flippy and whippy wrists. Its not a handsy action but is all about the hands. I thought I understood this but I didnt.

ob

Works for me!
 

Trace the face! :salut:

Years ago, I played regularly with a fellow who had been taught by Paul Runyon in Denver. My friend relayed to me that Runyon taught him to swing his arms straight back and up, in a "U" shape and to let his pivot take the club in. I tried it then, but could never make it work. Now, I think, I pretty much do exactly that. The key for me has been monitoring my alignments while I swing back in that "U" shape, which keeps the club on plane and controls my pivot. This thread reminded me of that conversation many years ago.

Years ago, I played regularly with a fellow who had been taught by Paul Runyon in Denver. My friend relayed to me that Runyon taught him to swing his arms straight back and up, in a "U" shape and to let his pivot take the club in. I tried it then, but could never make it work. Now, I think, I pretty much do exactly that. The key for me has been monitoring my alignments while I swing back in that "U" shape, which keeps the club on plane and controls my pivot. This thread reminded me of that conversation many years ago.

This sounds like a Blakebuster smash hit
 

Thanks Yoda and Bambam

I missed these posts at the time, this enticing Sneak Preview, Trailer for a "Moses at The Parting" movie for TGM ers on the Right Forearm Pickup.

Yoda, If time doesnt allow for the making of a movie, would you please type us a little note on the "Pickup" and right elbow bending? This is something we are all probably struggling with. How do we get the Magic Of The Right Forearm to work on the backswing? You need Extensor Action I'd imagine, like Bambam.

Regards
Ob


PS Here is a video of your pal Billy Casper showing us his takeaway, down the line this time. How bout this elbow bending?

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=yMQXTCm2hbQ&NR=1

I don't mean to butt in on this OB. But here's how.

Use your right deltoid muscle to fan your right forearm. Instant extensor action and 3 dimensions take-away. The dimensions (HK) are "back, up, in" simulataneously.
:)

Apres vous , Daryl, but of course.

I saw your post today in the Drag The Wet Mop thread and it reminded me of this enticing cliff hanger here. Man if you get Startup right everything just flows, eh? On the other hand some days I feel like Im fighting my body. If I can just crack this Elbow Magic code..............

Did you see Sean O'hare on the weekend? Not a lot of elbow bend on him and as you mentioned a very upright plane to match accordingly.

So what gives one the instant "up" then? I can see fanning and the pivot giving you the "back" and "in". In your other post (you should move it here , its very interesting) you mentioned Extensor Action as lifting the club up , I think. I thought EA shouldnt move the club? Which leaves us with 'bending" I guess. I note you didnt mention bending above. What you got against elbow bending anyways?

I used to have a frozen right elbow and right hip too, covered the plane, lifted the club up with my hands, cocked both my wrists ..............ouch. Im happy to automate much of my new swing with a bending right elbow. Hey we did some elbow bending in Atlanta eh? Remember. Didnt bother you intellectually then!

Move your post over here, its inspired. A total rewrite of the book, but inspired. You are learned and so I differ to your inspiration until I am presented with a more sane explanation. Which hopefully will come very soon. I have a noon tee off time and need to know.

Cheers
Ob

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/a...d=124144766 1

Dear Pivot controlled Hands Player and friend, O.B.:)

Do not pivot at start-up. The Bend in your right elbow at Impact Fix allows your right forearm to lay on the plane. You have more bend than I because you use a Punch Elbow position. So you can only arrive at release on the elbow plane. A steeper Plane Angle would require a Pitched Elbow.

Your Right Forearm Pick-up, Start-up, is the exact upward angle of your Right Forearm at Impact Fix (using only your Right Deltoid Muscles). For you, I guess, from 7am to 2pm. Elbow Plane. Have someone stand in front of you while you assume Impact Fix. Tell them to superimpose a Clock-face over your right forearm. Ask them to stand to your right and tell you if you followed that angle on your backstroke. That’s the direction that your right shoulder moves your bent right arm to the top your swing. Do not bend or unbend your right arm any more or less until Release. Your Right Shoulder and Left arm (Check-rein) will control your Right elbow position throughout the entire stroke. And your Right Forearm will be ON-Plane at Release. :happy3:

The MAGIC is that because your right arm is bent a certain amount, that the extensor action take-away can only move your hands at the precise angle required because the checkrein won't allow any other plane angle. COOL.

The Punch Elbow, is a location. The elbow goes straight to the ball from release to impact (because your body is rotating, you just and only need to thrust straight), but your hand traces an arc.

Regards, from a Hand Controlled Pivot Player,
Daryl

O.B.

You cannot trace the plane line if you allow your hands to rise above the elbow plane because you use a Punch Elbow Position. If your hands go above the elbow plane, you must shift planes on the downstroke to the elbow plane before you can trace anything.

In other words. Your Hands at Impact fix, have already told the pivot what to do. Your hands said, "I'm going to swing on a elbow plane, so you, my pivot, get ready to move them back down this plane", and your pivot said, "ok, but if you switch planes on me at the top of the swing, like you always do, then I won't be ready, so don't blame me if things get screwed up again."

O.B.

The Plane Angle inclination is set at impact fix and there is no changing that. If your Hands go above that plane at the top of your backstroke, you can only trace an outside-in path accross the planeline.

I didn't re-write the Book. I translated encrypted HK into plane (plain) language.

Daryl, thanks for this.

I must say that as an old frozen right elbow, shoulder turn takeaway guy, that I am quite fond of my bending right elbow and new found tracing ability. I value your learned opinion, truly , and will do some thinking on it, some experimentation.

To me pickup implies elbow bend. If Homer didnt really mean elbow bend when he said it, then his writing is even more obtuse than I suspected. Not that this would surprise me or anything, but man things are cryptic enough, already.

If I understand you correctly, with EA and a turning back to plane right shoulder it is possible, indeed preferable to maintain the degree of bend in the right elbow as established at fix. I can see how this would all work but the problem I have with this is that it would imply that the left arm would never come across the chest. If it did then to my thinking the right side of the triangle would shorten via elbow bending, no? Where's your #4 angle? How do you cock your left wrist, if not by right elbow bending? Active wrist cocking? Are you sure this isnt pivot to hands?

I will give it some thought though.

What about 1-L-18, Changing the Plane Angle has no effect on the Plane Line.

Why would the left arm not come accross the chest? It will seriously cross the chest and more. Extensor action will pull the left arm tight to the chest! Remember he said that on its own, the left arm can only get to about 45 degrees to the chest? Extensor action sucks the left arm to the chest. Extensor Action pulls the Left Arm Tightly Against the Chest and holds it there......

OB.

I understand your confusion. The Right Elbow Bend at Impact Fix needs to stay FIXED at that degree of bend. Magic of the Right forearm is allowed to bend another inch or so to cock the left wrist. Then, a true (not false) extensor action take-away will control your shoulder location at the top of the swing for it to properly support the #3 pressure point during the downswing sequence.

With steep Swing Planes, Extensor action with a fixed right elbow bend will cause your right shoulder to raise as you take-away your hands on that same steep plane because the final destination of the right shoulder depends on how much front or side or back deltoid muscle is used in extensor action. If you bend your right elbow on the backswing to raise your arms then your right shoulder is swingin in the breese. You won't be able to dictate where the shoulder should be or the elbow.

When singing on Flatter Swing Planes, Extensor Action with a fixed Right elbow bend will cause your Right Shoulder to be flatter as you take-away your hands on that shallower plane.

Please consider this. Cross your arms across your chest and bend forward at the hips. Turn your shoulders but allow your knees to bend and your hips to turn and slant. YOUR SHOULDERS will turn on a Rotated Shoulder Plane. Now experiment…lock one knee or the other, lock both, allow them to wiggle your butt or push it back and forth, side to side,,whatever, until you find a pivot like motion that will turn those shoulders on a flatter plane during the backswing (if you want them on a flatter plane)and drive your right shoulder to the plane line on your downswing.

Homer Kelley is saying that the Extensor Action Take-away, and backswing will put your right shoulder and elbow moving on the plane you selected at IMPACT FIX (fixing your right elbow to match your desired swing plane when using the left arm checkrein) so extensor action will match your right shoulder turn to your swing plane, but Homer also says that your pivot will screw everything up if you don’t train it to move your right shoulder back to the plane during the backswing or on a path to the plane line at the Start-down.

He DID NOT say that the PIVOT can screw up the shoulder turn angle (Rotated, flat) on the backswing because it’s controlled by Extensor Action, but it will screw up how far back the shoulder will go to reach the swing Plane. . ….7-13, and the pivot can also screw up on the downswing by driving the shoulder off plane. 10-11-0-3, the Pivot must comply with the #3 pressure point aiming.

So, your posture at impact fix is important because it effects your right elbow location and your ability to have your right forearm on-plane. So don’t change your posture once you figure it out, then train your pivot to get your right shoulder back to the plane on the backswing and to drive your right shoulder down to the plane line at Start-down.

So, cross your arms and train your pivot.

The feet, knees and hips, especially hip slant, work slightly different for a steeper swing plane than a shallower swing plane.

Daryl

I value your insights given your years of commitment to the book (s). Was it eight sixth editions that you have burned through? I will take some time to ponder all of this with my solitary 6th in hand. Wish we could hash it out on a range somewhere.

I must admit that I dont understand how you can have a flat ish swing plane with only an inch or two of right elbow bend.

Ill do your drills when I get a chance to without everyone here wondering what the heck Im doing. Here is a drill for your consideration too:

Do you want angled or horizontal......ok horizontal, not trying to out you as a hitter just yet. Ill start at the very beginning for those following along at home.
Standing erect with your left arm held out straight ahead and level to the ground on a horizontal plane, your left arm forming a 90 degree angle at the shoulders. Your open left palm held vertical to the ground. Holding the shoulders still (zero out the pivot), move your left arm across your chest to about a 45 degree angle with the shoulders while maintaining the left palm vertical to the ground. Drop the left arm down onto the inclined plane while maintaining the left palms vertical to the ground alignment. (This is the check for Horizontal Hinging Alignment compliance at various places in startup BTW). Now place your right hand on your left wrist in a quasi golf like fashion. With the Right Forearm now in control of the left arm, the left arm inert, fan the right arm back to its 90 degree or Address position on the inclined plane. Go back and forth between Address and 45 degrees. The degree of fanning vs bending in the right arm, when assuming a real golf grip, is to some degree a function of the right elbow position. I think. Please advise.

Now go back to the 45 degree position again with the right hand on the left wrist , horizontal hinge alignment etc and from there Bend the Right Elbow and allow the left arm to rise to right shoulder height (Top) with the shoulder turn still zeroed out. Do this pump action style to feel the "Pickup", if you will.

So fanning and bending but when morphed in some manner forming a blended motion/action that takes the bent and frozen right wrist to Top. If you do this and then add a shoulder turn after the hands reach Top the right shoulder will take the hands back or "in". The "in" of "back, up and in", Three Dimensional Startup. Pickup for "in", Fan for "back", Shoulder turn for "in".

Let me know what you think. Not sure if this is correct or not. This is something I have been wondering about. Hence my appeal to Bambam and Yoda for more information regarding their post above. Not sure how this jibes with your notes about Plane Angles at Top and in Release etc. Im wondering if by adjusting the 45 degree angle up and down you are also adjusting the plane angle? The steeper the plane the more divergent the direction of the hands vs the shoulders assuming a flat back to the turned shoulder plane move anyways.

Cheers and feel free to rip this to shreds if you wish. This is from the incubator. But like I said, I just have to know how to get this done right. Im good for a while and then it goes away. Stopping at Top seems to help me out when I can do it.

Ob

I feel really bad for you. An inch or two is all that is needed to cock the Right Wrist. You still have all of that elbow bend that you had at impact fix. Add both together and your right arm is bent at an approximately 90 degree angle.......

Ok?

Dear Bewildered,

I understand what you’re saying. Now, don’t ever (unless it’s a trick shot) move your right elbow in a sawing motion again unless its during release. You are correct in believing that your right elbow bend needs to be about 90 degrees to match a swing plane on the elbow plane. Please see my previous post in this thread.

The Elbow is guided by the right shoulder and left arm. Where is it guided to (pointing behind you or downward)?..is the result of Wrist Action at Start-up,,Swivel or Single Action.

The Right Elbow is never in control of anything and especially the left arm. The left arm checkreins the right forearm from unbending (and thereby moving the hands away from the left shoulder) and the Right Shoulder controls the raising of the left arm……….

Extensor action take-away is a “bent over dumbbell shoulder fly” with a bent right arm. Ask your fitness instructor to show you how it’s done. Do one. Make a fist in your right hand. Grab the fist with your left hand and do a Dumbell bent over shoulder fly. See what happens to the Left Arm,, it raises magically.

The reason that your #3 pressure point is directly oppossed to the primary lever is because your Single Action Wrist Action caused it to be there when the Single Action Wrist Action is combined with Extensor Action during the Take-away and Backswing.

Extensor Action combined with my start-up swivel will move my right elbow to a position below the Hands when the shoulder raises the left arm.

Extensor Action: Do not Fan the elbow like a Chicken Wing by holding the right hand steady and the elbow flops around. Its kind of like holding the elbow stationary and fanning the right hand, except that the elbow moves up and down and away from your body (if you have the flexibility)

OB. Here are some drawings to help clarify. But just understand that fanning and extensor lift up are simultaneous. The deltoid muscles perform both motions. The combined motion is like that of a bent over deltoid fly with a bent right arm moving up, away and back simultaneously.



NOTE: That the on-plane right forearm and the Top of swing right forearm have the same bend except that the top of swing forearm has an additional one inch bend for cocking the left wrist. Hackers will have a very bent right arm at the top of the swing. The first bend (95% of total combined bend), which establishes the swing plane is determined at impact fix.

OB.

Give me one more chance.

Do you remember this?





This is the Right Forearm Flying Wedge. The Right Forearm and Club are on the same plane. Do you see the amount of Yoda’s Elbow bend? What do you need to do, to raise the forearm and club off of the plane? Answer: Bend the Elbow.


So, bending the elbow raises the right forearm and club above the plane. Homer Kelley said that the Right Forearm of every hacker come into impact too high. Hackers bend their elbow too much and raise the club above the plane. They have very little flexibility. They need to bend the elbow to raise the left arm to look like a golfer.

Dont feel sorry for me. Its you Im worried about.

Ok 90 degrees I can see. One man's non bending elbow is the same mans 90 degrees of bend. Ouch. How the heck do you insert smilie faces?.......

Now the hitters are happy since that is what they cock and load. This was my main concern. The hitter with a non bending right elbow?

Im Bewildered? You just noticed this now? Who isnt when reading TGM?

I never said "elbow saw". Gave that up with One Plane.

Magic of the Right Forearm, that cryptic but enticing bit of business. I welcome any insight into this topic and invite others to jump in. Please.

Daryl but if "the Right Elbow is never in control of anything , especially the left arm" as you say, then why did Homer say as much in regard to the Magic of the Right Forearm?

Per 7-3...." Bending and Straightening the Right Elbow will RAISE AND LOWER the left arm". Caps by Homer by the way. One of you guys is totally crazy or maybe both and soon maybe me too.

Ob

Dear Daryl,

Great information there...thanks! I tried and gave me a better on plane look in video. :salut: One more question...

Does the "tee/towel under armpits drill" violates the "right deltoid raises the left arm"?

Daryl those drawings were a lot of work. Thank you. Im with you but not so sure about the Extensor Action, Fly. I was thinking of the right forearms move as described by Yoda in Alignment Golf, the Indian Chiefs "how" or the Pledge of Allegiance type deal.

As far as the Right Forearm Flying Wedge photo goes I see the table top as a representing the Plane of the Right Wrist Bend throughout the swing regardless of right elbow bend. Only at some points in the swing will the RFFW be on the Inclined Plane as well. So yes elbow bend would take the forearm off the table but only if you assume the table to be the inclined plane as opposed to the Plane of the Right Wrist Bend. Per 6-C-3-0-1. "...the Right Forearm and Clubshaft are ....positioned on the plane of the right wrist bend AT RIGHT ANGLES TO THE LEFT ARM PLANE. That is the precision assembly of the power package basic structure and is mandatory during the entire motion. Hitting or Swinging..."

Daryl you are learned and very well read. I am a Range Rat and information assimilator with one goal in mind.........to hit it better. I care not for debate on a subject I feel ill equiped and unworthy of intellectualizing. My position is really just stuff I have gleamed right here mixed with my own misconceptions and experiences. Experiences gained over a life time of Golf addiction.

I will go a few more rounds if you wish but only as long as you are entertained and Im learning something. Me making a mash of other peoples ideas and concepts is only a disservice to the other people reading this stuff.

But this is a topic that interests me. I need to simplify my takeaway. So lets cut to the end scene where we all walk happily down the fairway with our new found Magical Right Forearm startups. But who can tell us what that is?

How's the upside down dumbell fly move working for you? Are you working out?

ob

Don’t worry about me either. I’ve always been high strung. I just had one of those light bulb flash moments. Ya know, everything makes more sense and everything in the book is seen in a new light.

Ya, I know what you mean about the right elbow. I always had the idea that I was supposed to tell the elbow where to go, keep the elbow on plane, the forearm isn’t on plane until the elbows on plane. But now, I think I've got a handle on it and writing it out in the posts helped ingrain it.

Maybe everybody uses extensor action that way, I don’t know, maybe I understand things better when I go at it at a different angle or something. I feel really confident in my understanding of the golfing machine. Better than ever. But, I've said that before. :)

Daryl

You know whats weird? Here we are two middle aged guys who've spent most of our lives thinking about golf and neither of us really knows how the club gets over our right shoulder......

What kind of insanity is this? There's probably somebody logging on for the first time whose reading this and thinking he'd better get the heck out of here and quick. "Those TGM guys are whacked, dude .........just take your right wrist to shoulder height man, WTHeck."

Yes: Reality Check. :laughing9 :laughing9 :laughing9

I tell people it's my Hobby. I'm old enough to have a Hobby.

Hey guys, isn't that what is so wonderful about TGM? If you have a flat left wrist, lag pressure, and the club on plane, the options are limitless. No right or wrong!

Great discussion, I am learning a lot from you both...

Kevin

If I had a flat left wrist, lag pressure, and the club on plane at impact I would play golf on Thursdays, Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays. :laughing9

Where ya going? Im available. Ill bring my "how" you bring your "fly".

Gonna fly now. Eye of the tiger Rocky.

Yoda is on assignment, I think. Hope he answers this. We all need it and "how".

oB

The "Right Approach"
 

with my right forearm...its own angle of approach burned into my brain! :salut:

It bends because you want to straighten it!
 

Extensor Action unlocked a better understanding of the magic of the right forearm. Earlier I got carried away with the right forearm karate chopping deal. I misunderstood Tomasello's explanation. It dawned on me (again kinda like the dowels and dragging a wet mop)when I actually worked on the extensor action drills it suddenly hit me that without extensor action there can be no precision bending of the right elbow (among other things) A below plane (with #3 acc. angle) pull of the left arm by the right, an on plane right forearm with a precision bend of the right elbow to accomplish this alignment, then trying to straighten the right arm against the checkrein of the left arm will determine the precise amount of right arm bend. It is not good enough to simply bend the right elbow willy-nilly! When I felt the right elbow bending in response to my concerted effort to straighten it...I began to understand the depth of Homer's contribution to golf! I have a fighting chance to reproduce that unmistakable feel...EVERYTIME!

Okie,

I couldn't agree with you more. :) Well said.

Nice one Okie

Loved that "willie nillie" too. Extensor Action is so key to consistency for me.

ob

I will describe my preferences in performing the "right forearm takeaway" for golfers who may be interested in my opinion.

I prefer Stuart Appleby's "right forearm takeaway" action.

See this swing video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jqJ9R2LypY

Here are capture images from that swing video.



There are three biomechanical motions that are of major relevance in dictating the path of the right forearm takeaway.

1) The path of rotation of the right shoulder socket in space.

2) The path of external rotation of the right humerus in the right shoulder socket (while the right shoulder socket is in motion).

3) The amount of right elbow bending per unit time.

Starting with 1) - The path of rotation of the right shoulder socket in space.

If the golfer keeps the degree of waist/hip bend constant and keeps the degree of knee flex constant, then the spine (which has a small degree of rightwards spinal tilt at address) will automatically have a defined position/path that will dictate the movement of the right shoulder in space - presuming that the upper torso rotates naturally/perpendicularly around the spine. Note that Stuart's shoulders move near-horizontally in the backswing.

Now, consider the second factor - 2) The path of external rotation of the right humerus in the right shoulder socket (while the right shoulder socket is in motion).

If a golfer allow the right humerus to externally rotate in the right shoulder joint (while the right shoulder socket is in motion) without lifting the right arm up (abducting the arm) then the right elbow will follow a defined path in space - note that Stuart's right elbow remains very close to the elbow plane (white line) throughout the entire backswing.

Now, consider the third factor - 3) The amount of right elbow bending per unit time.

The amount of right elbow bending per unit time is dependent on the requirement to keep the clubshaft on-plane throughout the backswing. If one uses a Smartstick, then it becomes automatic how much one bends the right elbow per unit time, because one is monitoring the laser light's path.

Regarding the initial takeaway movement - I favor Stuart Appleby's approach.



Note the movement of the right forearm (blue line) in space during the takeaway. It's three-dimensional movement occurs automatically/naturally due to three movements that are occurring simultaneously - i) external rotation of the right humerus without any abduction of the right humerus; ii) rotation of the shoulders around the spine and iii) a slight increase in the degree of right elbow bend.

I believe the "right forearm takeaway" motion should be natural - and follow the same path that a tennis player (or table tennis player) will move the right upper limb when taking the racquet back in preparation to perform a forearm strike. Yoda demonstrates this natural motion in his Alignment Golf video - using a racquet.

Jeff.

Hi Jeff

I like your co-ordinated movement of Right Shoulder back, Fanning and Elbow Bending. Perhaps Id list Fanning and Bending ahead of the Right Shoulder in a hierarchical sense as we dont put our minds in our right shoulder except for training purposes. Fanning and bending can be directed via conscious pressure point awareness. Swing the Hands.

Stuart has one nice and simple Startup that sets up his even more impressive Startdown. His on plane right shoulder and clubshaft move right down the turned shoulder plane in Startdown.

There must be a desired destination when we start back. This is the "Top" of the three Stations , Address, Top and Finish. It is a precision alignment. We dont just start going back Willie Nillie. Its must be precise. As the right shoulder goes in so does the right arm attached to it. As the right elbow bends the plane flattens etc. Like in Apps swing, the right shoulder has a destination it must get to especially for those using the Turned Shoulder Plane and employing an On Plane Right Shoulder Move in startdown.

The PP #3 traces the straight plane line. Hands to Pivot is key. Look back at the position of your Bent Right Hand at Top and then train your right forearm to take it there. The degree of elbow bend or the angle of the shoulder plane etc should be trained and then occasionally checked for alignment compliance but not used as a conscious swing thought in the ideal, when playing as opposed to practicing anways. Put your mind in your hands pressure points and take them where they should go. The rest will just happen. Use your pressure points to actually play the game.