Mark Evershed Student....
 

Geeez Joe....with that much background....I would think we should be getting some insight from you? I would rather listen to someone with first hand knowledge.

DG

youdo not learn when you are talking.

BRILLIANT!!! :salut: :golf:

The Master's Voice
 

To my mind, there are Three Stages to Mastery of any subject. These are encapsulated in the following quote:

"Reading makes a learned man.
Conversation makes a ready man.
Writing makes a precise man."

-- Sir Francis Bacon

To my mind, Joe Curtis is referring to Bacon's first phase of mastery, that is, getting a grasp of the basic facts. If you want to 'play marbles', you've got to get some marbles to shoot! However, that phase of the journey soon ends . . .

To really 'hammer down' the basics, you must interact with others. It's not enough just to have a bag of marbles, you must kneel down, draw the circle and play the game! This jousting of ideas back and forth yields its own fruit -- new insights and a deeper appreciation of the fundamental issues -- but still permits a certain laxity of expression ('wiggle room'). In other words, you can be a little looser 'just talking' than when you know you will be held accountable. Finally, though, comes the day when all preparatory efforts end and your solo challenge of the summit begins . . .

You enter this rarified atmosphere when you take pen in hand and crystalize your thoughts by writing. Here, in the crucible of solitude, you become The Master, a true champion. Here, there can be no substitute for concentrated thought. Here, there is no reprieve from ill-conceived ideas: They have been commited to paper and are there for all to see, measure and judge.

These Forums foster this three-stage discipline and thus provide a true path to individual mastery. The textual nature of our medium demands that we write to 'speak', so posting serves both as 'conversation' and 'crystalized thought'. I invite and encourage members to participate according to their own levels of understanding. In so doing, you will 'connect the dots' of your own fragmented ideas and one day join those who have sought and won the 'pearl of great price' . . .

The joy of genuine accomplishment.

:)

Precision
 

This is as precise as it gets on the subject. Mark Evershed and Tom Tomasello taught/teach the same motion for swinging with the right arm. Now Tommy might have taught two different variations per 10-20. 10-20-B with only the right forearm and 10-20-D with both forearms per 7-3 and 6-B-2-0. But the right elbow and forearm have to work the same way for both procedures to be generating longitudinal acceleration (Swinging). It's a throw from the top with the right forearm. As Tommy said, it's one smooth motion. No hit!!! It's a free wheeling action as Tommy said in his 1987 video giving instruction by himself with just a video camera. Not be confused with other recordings.

When you get this action down....you'll discover the right elbow wants to start unfolding on it's own at startdown. You're just triggering it's natural movement with the muscles of the right forearm. That's the revelation. It's Magic!!! Sorry I can't find a light bulb icon!!!

As Tommy said, "Sorry for the simplicity".

DG

I'd like to continue Joe but if you look back on my first few posts, you can see where the term "ad nauseum" comes into play.

Last time I checked, this was the Lynn Blake Golf site but when it comes to the right arm swing, we must be violating a patent.

There is so much more to explore and understand but...

I'm done for now.

i am sorry too. i thought it was going to be an interesting thread. can you not delete responses? if so, do so, and continue. would like to hear what you have to say. i have always enjoyed your politeness and consideration of others on this site. keep up the good work.

bagger bagger
 

c'mon bagger...............with your knowledge we want to know

this is a few or couple.....ruin it for a few......

dont let it happen...........

if you stop

THEY................win

we lose

Thanks again Joe - Yoda is also encouraging me to continue so I'll work up another post or two this week.

I've been exercising restraint on deleting posts, but since DG is not exercising restraint and not contributing anything new to our knowledge base, I may have to start.

I hope I don't have to.

There is no win/lose here. Tom was a wonderful teacher and contributed a great deal to the game of golf. His material has been very well covered here and I'm just taking a slightly different approach. That is, I'm not approaching this from a method perspective. Some need a method and I'm fine with that, but not everyone fits a particular mold.

Next up we'll investigate the settle differences between left arm and right arm swinging beyond the right elbow center and right arm longitudinal pulling. What is the same and what is different?

This has been debated in the past without resolution.


I've been staying clear of this and have been trying to just read and learn. I went back and watched and listened to all the TT videos I have and the phone conversion between TT and Homer so I don't mis anything. TT never talks about a RAS or HIT- at least not what the punch TT talks about. DG changed from yrs of calling it a RAS to the 'magic of the Right Forearm.' But 7-3 is more than a TT concept- the magic is multi-stroked. TT never taught left side pull- was suspious of a big hip slide- apprehensive of its pivot role. It seemed very logical to smack the ball with the right arm- the right side of the body and still not have a Hit Punch stroke. But this is not a RAS, nor is dropping the club on plane before cranking the right shoulder trust and letting power acc # 4 benefit from the hip turn pivot gear.

So bagger- is the RAS (not TT's stroke) just a baseball kinda of throw of the clubhead on plane to the ball? 'ouch'

LBG's Tower of Babel
 

6B - You are correct that based on all known evidence, TT never called his method a Right Arm Swing and as far as LBG is concerned, he promoted a left shoulder center swing stroke and a very good one at that. DG has coined TT's teaching a RAS stroke and therein lies a lot of confusion on this Forum. I would prefer he call it a "Magic of the Right Forearm" stroke or something along those lines. This is why I need to separate the learning from TT's teaching. There are common elements but as best we can tell, Tom didn't teach a textbook RAS procedure with a right elbow center stroke.

I may need to lock the thread after this post! :)

I'm interested in getting to the bottom of the RAS stroke because it is unknowingly used by many; for better or worse.

It is very similar to an "on plane" baseball pitch but doesn't necessarily require a deep pitch elbow, or pitch elbow for that matter. It's a CF swing and there is still a hinge running through the center of the head through the middle of the feet.

You guys are a hoot!!! Yeah, yeah......it's all my fault!!! Remember, your conclusions will just come back to Tommy. Some day you'll thank me for my input...

You guys might start throwing up when I begin to start threads with 4 Barrel swinging (we may even hear from Coophitter)....just an extension of the Magic of the Right Forearm!!!! Yeeeeeeeeee Hawwwwwwwww thanks Howard!!! Crack that WHIP!!! See section 9-2.

Play ball...

DG

DG - In all seriousness, I'll thank you for your input now.

Your contributions of the Tomasello material has been great and is helping many people play better golf.

Lets just try to keep our terminology straight so we can avoid conflicts and better understand all of the options.

input? China has input in Tibet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxgXa3dcjYo

Right Sided Swing with a HH using a body release.

Heaps more vids of Gary Edwins students but Pamps is the nicest.

I didn't know I was right arm swinging until Ted Fort told me I was and moved me to more of a hitters action. My only thought process was to pull the club with the right elbow, absolutlely no thought of the hands doing anything. I was actually trying to get into a pitch elbow condition that Ben Doyle taught me. I would just pivot and try to drag my elbow in a pitch position.

I could hammer the ball this way and generated a ton of lag, but had a tendency to hook with the longer clubs. I also had a tendency to get off plane and swing to the right.

DG's and TT's version of right arm swing has you actually trying to throw the club from the top, but with a proper pivot the club will square up perfectly. Much more "magic of the right forearm" in their motion.

Right Arm Swinging at the LPGA Championship
 

Hello all,

I'll be at the LPGA Championship managing the driving range from 6am till noon tomorrow and Sunday all day. If you're going to attend the championship stop on by the range and look me up.

Bagger,

Some food for thought to continue the evaluation of the right arm swing.

My experience with the right arm and swinging....

The 4 Barrel Swing with the lower body leading....good and bad results. Distance excellent....control questionable. I used what I believe was an non-automatic release by driving out at the ball at the release point.....the classic switters motion.

The 3 barrel swing with the right arm starting the downswing with the same kind of release motion on the downswing. More consistency, no hooks, slices with the driver.

The 3 barrel swing with the right arm starting the downswing.....just pushing the right arm and allowing it to release automatically....initial results good...in time lost the sweet feeling of lag. This lead me to believe you got to release....you just can't push it down ya got to throw it down per one of the release motions!!!

3 Barrel swing with right arm throwing it for the top a la Tom Tomasello and the Magic of the Right Forearm....consistent shots (powerful shots), consistent shots with the driver...straight as an arrow....amazingly straight.

Now, I'm in the process of incorporating the both forearms approach. By the end of the summer I should be able to comment on that.

My guess is Tom Tomasello didn't call the right forearm procedure that he taught the right arm swing because I believe he didn't agree with that last paragraph in the book and the twinge in the right elbow.....I believe Tommy thought it was BS. I agree.

DG "Dave Nelson"

Very good food for thought and I hope you get a chance to hook up with some folks here.
I think it's great when people volunteer their time and assist in Tournaments.

Thanks DG

let us keep it going. what are the answers to the above?

pivot for ras
 

please explain the pivot procedure for a hitter. where are the hips and shoulders at impact,etc. thanks in advance.

Pivot Discussion
 

Joe,

The left arm swinger is more reliant on body power. The power of the left arm swinger is transferred from the feet, through the knees, hips, and shoulders to the relatively passive arms except for extensor action.

The right arm swingers pivot is more like a hitters 4-barrel pattern which uses accumulator #4 for a short time until the right shoulder is in a position to push against. Then the hitters right arm takes over the driving action against the right shoulder.

The right arm swinger would have a similar start down until the right elbow reaches its position as the swing center. At that time, mometum transfer assists in driving the sweeping and extending active right arm. The difference in pivots between the left arm swing and right arm swing is the pivot must transfer its energy sooner and at a lesser degree with the right arm swing; just like the 4 barrel hit.

The pivot motion as generated by the hips would have an initial thrust to get the right shoulder in motion and once the right elbow becomes the swing center, active pivot thrust becomes pivot motion (passive). There could be other versions of this as well which didn't have an active #4 start down, but rather a passive pivot motion which provides support only for the active right arm.

The difficulty in all of this is keeping the wrists loose enough to allow centrifugal force to control the hand motion through impact. If the right wrist stays stiff, the swing becomes similar to a hit with associated angled hinging. It is possible to manipulate a stiff right wrist into horizontal hinging, but the clubface would be misaligned. I believe this is why Homer says in 10-3-K that the right wrist can unbend in this procedure.

Don't take this as gospel. I'm just boiling down yellow book concepts into elements of the RAS. Homer had very few words to say about the Right Arm Swing and Yoda and I have never discussed it, so I'm just trying to fill in the blanks.

I'll be the first in to line to not take it as gospel.

DG

who do you tink is a right arm swinger on tour?

Joe,

I don't know of any - but I haven't watched the short shots close enough. That's where probably has its best application from a close reading of The Golfing Machine.

Another couple of recent posts from Yoda may help add context here.

It's not appropriate to ask RAS questions in the attached thread, but it adds to our discussion here.
http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/s...2&postcount=33

Tommy One Note
 

DG,

We've had many a bout here in years past, and I respect your allegiance to Tom Tomasello. Nevertheless, I'm reminded of that great line from the movie Ben Hur:

"One wife? One god, that I can understand - but one wife! That is not civilized. It is not generous.

-- Sheik Ilderim

:laughing9

Cheers

=D>

Joe

A few definites would include Rod Pampling Gavin Coles and any other Gary Edwin students i cant remember some others

This thread is hurting the inside of my right elbow!

Hmmmmm......bad parallel.

DG