Originally Posted by mrodock (Post 49555)

Bucket you are the picture guy, would Lehman and Waldorf be counterexamples?

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket (Post 49587)

Here's T.L. . . . rope handle?



YOU may like this one better though . ..



Waldorf



That's the best I can do.

Originally Posted by Mike O (Post 49591)

Bucket,
Waldorf's attorney just called - he wants to know who you use for counsel?

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket (Post 49599)

What kinda question is that?
I use numeralz for counselin' you idiot 4-1-2-3 slangin' them rockz beeeeeeeeotch!!!

You probably still use fingers and toes . .. but we know you can't get to 11 with no didgets . . . maybe 10 3/4's.

Originally Posted by Daryl (Post 49553)

Pivot Lag. As soon as the Hips stop moving forward or slow, the Shoulders slow then Arms, Hands and Clubhead. #3 PP should have strong Pressure at least until Both Arms Straight. Driven by the Pivot.

Not sure if I am with you on the premise that when the hips slow down they slow down the shoulders, then the arms, hands, club, etc. As I understand it, swing jackets and other body motion software show a kinetic chain where the feet, then hips, then shoulders, etc have to slow down to pass on their momentum to the next "link" in the chain. This may not be a conscious movement, but it is what I believe happens.

What good is going fast if you can’t sustain the Lag. Besides, people have different speeds. People with fast Hips won’t hit the ball any farther unless they can move that Right Hip a long Way Through Impact.

Please keep in mind that Most Golfers (maybe 95%) do not move their Right Hip Far enough. You though, may have more than adequate Right Hip Travel. But, if you find yourself moving the ball back in your stance for Irons, then you probably don’t either and you simply have not learned to Pivot in a way that allows for one Ball Position. If you play the Ball back in your stance, then it’s because your Hands simply are not getting to the ball if played just behind Low Point. That’s a Pivot Problem.

I agree most golfers don't get their hips open enough at impact. I, too, am a fan of a forward ball placement (and a relatively wide stance). For what it's worth, I play a single ball position and a relatively wide, but varying, stance width.

First learn to Pivot, then learn to go faster, IF your Body can Handle it. Mine can't!!! I'm 6 feet tall, 200 pounds, and My Pivot is too powerful for my arms and hands to handle. I'm very Strong but my arms simply cannot handle the Pressure that my Pivot can put on them. My Hands know, and they Tell me to take it down a notch. Honestly, during my downswing, my Hands are Telling my Pivot to cool it.


Fair enough. I think each person's swing, and more importantly, their feels, are independent...you gotta listen to what your body tells you. I am 5' 10" 150 lbs, and have no problems with pivoting as hard as I can.

Originally Posted by Uppndownn (Post 49611)

Time out a minute, gents.

Bucket,

Have you decided what you wanted to know when you posted this thread titile?

We are starting to discuss a lot of different elements about the pivot. How it feels to some of us, where the force originates, etc. If left unchecked, this thread may spiral out into a lot of opinions without much consensus or clarity.

But I still want to know what Bucket meant by fundamental alignments of a good pivot?

Then we can move forward. I think.

Bucket? You have the floor.

UPP in snowy Ohio

Originally Posted by Clay Huestis (Post 49610)

After thinking on this a bit more, I realized I left out another important consideration regarding the pivot. The pivot has to interact with the ground....zone 1 is the only zone that comes in contact with the ground, and the power and speed of the pivot has to be developed from the ground up. If you try to pivot with one leg in the air, you can't go to hard or to fast...you need to be firmly connected to the ground. Also, I have found that you can generate a lot of rotational force by getting down into the ground and then rebounding up...reminds me a bit of Percy Boomer, opposing forces, gotta get down to get up.

Bucket, I would be interested to hear your thoughts on how the pivot interacts with the ground. As I understand it, the boys on the "dark side" also like the idea of getting down and springing up to generate rotational force. What have you learned about that?

Also does this idea of getting down and using the ground, then springing up, fall into the sacred snare of bobbing? Did Hogan bob? Did Snead? Does it matter? Why or why not?

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket (Post 49613)

I still don't think we have defined:

A. All the functions of the pivot
B. The Components that make up the pivot
C. Sequence of Movement in the Pivot
D. Relation of Pivot to Plane Angle
E. Relation of Pivot to Plane Line
F. Relation of Pivot to Hand Path
G. Relation of Pivot to Clubface
E. Relation of Pivot do Low Point

Does that get us back to the task at hand?

So let's start with Function

1. Deliver the Power Package to the desired Impact Hand Location with the corresponding amount of Shaft Lean
2. Develop Angular Momentum and/or Support of Muscular Thrust
3. Allow the club to satisfy desired Plane Line/Angle requirements via the amount of Axis Tilt
4. Produce the desired Hinge Action and comply with Grip Type Requirements
5. Produce the necessary amount of Pivot Lag (for full power shots from the ground up i.e. Swinging from the Feet) Transfer momentum from "joint segments"
6. Balance the Machine
7. Have a Center that produces a consistent Low Point and Angle of Attack

That's my 5 minute stab at it . . . in no particular order.

Originally Posted by Uppndownn (Post 49616)

B. Components:

One way to analyze the pivot summarizes the component parts as:

Feet
Hips
Shoulders
Power package
Club

Of course there is soft tissue and other variables in between these points but these in particular seem to be a good starting point.

C. An efficient pivot occurs indeed from the groud up, with a kinetic link sequence of the segments listed in B above beginning with the ground and ending in the club compressing the ball through the impact interval.

I am still not sure how you are going to tie this to alignment, though, Buck.

Originally Posted by Daryl (Post 49560)

At Impact, my Pivot is at its strongest. It slows after Both Arms Straight.

Do this: Stand in a Doorway. Face the Hinges. Take your Left Foot and put your left Heal against the inside of the Door Jamb. Your Right Foot is inside the Room. Take your posture. Using your Right Leg, move your Right hip toward the door casing. Your Left Hip will hit the casing first. Keep pushing with your Right Leg. About 100 pounds of pressure so far and you haven't even added Hip Action yet!!! You better use a folded towel or you'll hurt your left hip. If you did this behind a 4,000 pound car, you can push it with just your hip and Right Leg.

Do you get how to do this drill? I might be able to explain it better.

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket (Post 49619)

There's more to it than that . . .

How is the pivot different for the elbow plane vs. the turned shoulder plane?

How is it different for Angle of Approach, Plane Line Tracing, and Arc of Approach?

How is it different for Line Delivery and Circle Path?

I promise . . . it's different.

Originally Posted by golfbulldog (Post 49621)

I get it and I done it.... Greg McHatton does a similar drill where he uses his pivot to push against and move a heavy golf cart... no doubt that the body can do this and that you really become aware of your feet and planet earth when you do this...but in a golf swing this pivot power is used to overcome clubhead inertia at transition and not at impact...IMO.

You hit the ball with clubhead, clubhead attached to shaft, shaft moved as part of power package...what starts the power package in orbit? ...the pivot...we agree on this.

But can the pivot still spin the power package after accumulator 4 has started to release?? Sure , the pivot is still doing work... but is that work merely accomodating power package motion?

Once you release accumulator 2... can you muscle it more to release accumulator 2 harder?? If you do try , are you more likely to upset your alignments? I think that once an accumulator has been released....further muscle power is unadvisable. And what causes release of acc. 4? I think - in a pivot stroke - it is pivot motion.

In a pivot stroke, once you release accumulator 4.... can your pivot add more force? or is it just controlling direction?

Originally Posted by golfbulldog (Post 49622)

I agree - different... but let the pivot be defined by the plane, delivery path etc...and imperatives and essentials....do those...and your pivot will show its components...

your pivot components are whatever they have to be....for you to accomplish imperatives and essentials whilst using your consciously chosen components.... grip, plane line, plane shift,

so consciously choose:- 10-1, 10-2, 10-3, 10-4, 10-5, 10-6, 10-7, 10-8, 10-9, 10-10, 10-11, 10-18, 10-19 through 10-24....leave the others to mother nature whilst you focus on steady head and imperatives...then classify 10-12 through 10-17.

Originally Posted by Uppndownn (Post 49616)

B. Components:

One way to analyze the pivot summarizes the component parts as:

Feet
Hips
Shoulders
Power package
Club

Of course there is soft tissue and other variables in between these points but these in particular seem to be a good starting point.

C. An efficient pivot occurs indeed from the groud up, with a kinetic link sequence of the segments listed in B above beginning with the ground and ending in the club compressing the ball through the impact interval.

I am still not sure how you are going to tie this to alignment, though, Buck.

Originally Posted by Uppndownn (Post 49625)

There's more to it than that . . .

How is the pivot different for the elbow plane vs. the turned shoulder plane?

This is where you can teach me something. I see only an inclined plane, not the 5 or so different inclined planes discussed at times here. Ideally (and simplistically, perhaps) the pivot would move the sweetspot on plane all the way through follow through and corresponding swivel? I want to learn more about the different planes if you think it helps this discussion. For me, 3 planes exist....horizontal, vertical, and inclined. When you start slicing and dicing the inclined plane, I start losing interest. So help me out here.

UPP in snowy Ohio

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket (Post 49624)

So you are convinced that IF I have the Imperatives and the Essentials my Pivot components will comply via mutha nature?

Not sure about that one Dawgie Dawg.

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket (Post 49623)

The pivot is responsible for the GENERATION of Angular Momentum. And instrumental in determining low point and handle location. So maybe if you have too much axis tilt you have to do something compensatory via the right arm to get the handle in the right location.

Let me ask you a question . . . if you release #4 and your head moves down and back is that "subtracting"?

AND . . . What causes #4 angle to expand thereby expanding the rest of the accumulator angles propelling them seek their in-line relationship?

Originally Posted by golfbulldog (Post 49630)

Actually - I pretty much do believe that one ... but in reality you may not be doing the imperatives as required without a little bit of conscious pivot training...

Hands controlled pivot...pivot is controlled by the movement of the hands WITHIN the constraints provided by essentials and imperatives.... quite a pill to swallow but a sponnful of "stationary head" makes it easier to swallow...wow...I sound pretty Kool-aid preaching thinker....:eyes: :laughing9

Originally Posted by MBCpro (Post 49633)

Not to get into this too much, but can't you have the imperatives and the essentials with zero pivot? I do think this is a great thread and I do think the pivot is very misunderstood, and I do think hands controlled pivot is the ideal, but there are many variables to the pivot and how it can interfere with the hands.

back to you bucket!!


todd

Originally Posted by Uppndownn (Post 49635)

Not sure I looked looked looked deeply enough, because I see Nicklaus as an example of an upright plane and Hogan of course as the poster child of a flatter plane. I also see the side representing Jack's ball to feet has a shorter relative dimension than than the flatter plane player would have, which makes sense. So keep going, how does this relate to different inclined planes? Don't tell me Homer labelled them according to some body feature of the player? :crybaby:

UPP in snowy and confused Ohio

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket (Post 49641)

You're sniffin' now . . . Flat vs. Upright . . .So if we drew a triangle from the hands at start down on Nicklaus vs. Hogan . . . the bottom line whatever the heck that is called would be different right?

What component of the Plane (down out & forward) does that represent?

Originally Posted by gmoney_69 (Post 49642)

Call it the base of the triangle.

That line would represent the out of the three dimensions of impact.

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket (Post 49643)

Boom.

So here's the $64,000 question for UppandDownn(that you, g-money, are not allowed to answer because you know it!!!)

If the base of the Triangle represents the OUT . . . then how do you have to work your shoulders inorder to get the club to comply with the plane angle and amount of OUT IN THE PLANE??? ON BOTH SIDES DOWN AND THRU???

Holla back!!!!

gmoney-69 . . . DON'T ANSWER THAT QUESTION OR I'LL SEND MIKE O TO YOUR HOUSE TO GIVE YOU HERPES COMPLEX 1.

Originally Posted by BBax (Post 49650)

If the base of the Triangle represents the OUT . . . then how do you have to work your shoulders inorder to get the club to comply with the plane angle and amount of OUT IN THE PLANE??? ON BOTH SIDES DOWN AND THRU???

My guess at the money would be that the shoulders for the ball that is further from the feet would need to work more "out" and on a flatter plane. More out and less down. This may also create more axis tilt and a more "open" shoulder alignment at impact. The ball flight would tend to be a bit lower. That's my final answer.....let me know if and where I can pick up the "ka-ching" \\:D/

Originally Posted by Uppndownn (Post 49654)

OK. The flatter plane reflects a longer baseline and more level shoulder movement. Conversely, the upright plane is a shorter baseline and more tilted shoulder movement. The turned shoulder plane probably lies in between these two extremes for most of us. I have that. The pivot - if a kinetically linked movement from the ground up, happens very rapidly as a stretch-shorten muscle move. Now I am stuck. What are you getting at from here, Bucks?

Originally Posted by Uppndownn (Post 49662)

I will stab at the answers.

What part of the pivot makes the club go down?

That would be the press forward coming from the feet through the legs to the hips causing the right shoulder to drop.

What part of the pivot makes the club go out?
That would be after the initial froward press. The turn of the left hip away from the plane line allowing the right side to move through impact with the club moving out toward the plane line prior to impact.

I am not sure at all about requirements for steep vs. more flat plane, other than setup and player preference I reckon. I am guessing that the flatter plane swinger could set up with the trunk of his body more erect than the steeper plane player, but of course I see players take it back on one plane and then go straight up with the club, a la Tom Watson. Your turn, Bucks.

Originally Posted by Uppndownn (Post 49669)

TURN = OUT & FORWARD . . . (also GOING FORWARD = FORWARD and HANGING BACK = DOWN)

TILT = DOWN

[b]What if Nicklaus kept his right shoulder higher early in the down stroke, had less tilt, and got open quicker? What would the club do? Relate to length of the Right Triangle Base Line?./B]

Nicklaus swing would be shallower with those changes. The right triangle base line would be longer

Originally Posted by Uppndownn (Post 49678)

Believe it or not, Bucket, I am still not seeing it.

If you hold Nicklaus' right (rear) shoulder up longer. not allowing it to go down steeply, and told him not to tilt his torso so much toward the ground, it seems to me that his swing goes out more and down not as much, hence "shallower", which is what I thought I already tried to say.

Help!

UPP in snowy Ohio