For: 12 Piece Bucket
 

Dear Mr Bucket-


First, thank you for your posts. I have learned so much from you.

Your post #7 on "Just Plane Confused" could be one of the best one ever written on this forum.

As the posts developed after that I got more confused especially after okie posted.

Eventually you responded to him with this statement:

You are having some issues with Grip Type, the #3 Accumulator (the angle and how it works), and Wrist Action/Hand Action.

I'd say we need to start with your grip type because that is going to have a huge impact on how your hands HAVE to move during the Release Motions.

How do you have your hand on the club pop intruction "strong" or pop instruction "weak"? See the pics on 10-2-B vs 10-2-D grip types.

This really got my incubator going as I thought that I had a commanded on these subjects.

So I'll bite. I have a 10-2-D grip. Could you respond with # 3 accumulator (angle and how it works) as well as wrist and hand action compatible with 10-2-D. I am a swinger if that matters.

Thanks,


Jim Burke

J.B.

Here's a post I did awhile back on Throw Out (which is what us Swingers do) . . . This is how BUCKET thinks it works . . . may not be HOW it works or exactly HOW THE BOOK says it works . . . but I think it's close.

So this is the theory part. Next I'll give you how your 10-2-D Grip has to work with the theory . . .

throw out must happen on-plane . . . so it is On-Plane Throw Out. Throw Out can certainly be given over to CF for sure. But I think that many (me included) neglect to understand that the #3 Accumulator Roll/Swivel prior to Low Point is an OUTWARD motion. One of the most difficult things to learn is to Roll and Swivel while maintaining a relationship to straight Plane Line. I'm not sure that you can just turn that over to CF at least in the steeper learning curve portion of a G.O.L.F.er's life. If you Roll and Swivel underplane you just executed the #1 Snare . . . Steering. Uncock (extend the lever) down and out on plane to the plane line . . . roll out on plane to low point.

Another misconception that I think I'm starting to hatch in the incubator is that deemed #2 is the Velocity Accumulator . . . NOT because the uncocking happens fast. But because the Uncocking is simply an extension of the radius . . . and since the clubhead is at the end of the radius it speed is increased geometrically as a result of being further from the axis of rotation. So it is simply lever extension . . . not necessarily any great effort or need to happen "fast". As a result of the extension (fleeing from center) the clubhead's speed increases. But also as a result of the extension and the law of conservation of angular momentum, the angular velocity of the entire system slows down because the radius is extended. So you can't make it speed up around the CIRCLE but you will get speed as a result of the extension of the lever assembly with the clubhead being farther from the center of rotation.

So basically don't try to speed it up around the circle . . . you can't. Just extend the lever assembly DOWNPLANE and as a result the clubhead has to go faster. But the entire unit moves around the circle SLOWER in compliance with law. Angular Momentum = Mass X Angular Velocity X Radius . . . Radius is bigger . . . mass is constant . . . so Angular Velocity MUST go down inorder to conserve momentum. But the Tangential Velocity (linear velocity) is increasing because the point of the radius is farther from the center of the circle.

And . . .

A Wrist Throw is pretty much exclusively a Swinger's procedure. And it is very much with respect to the Left Wrist if we are talking a right handed player.

If you want to see what a Wrist Throw is just go pick up your hammer and make that motion like hammering a board. That's it. For a Golf like motion you just hammer on an Inclined Plane of motion rather than a Vertical Plane. The wrist makes the exact same motion your left hand is just turned to the plane.

For the Swinger the Wrist Throw is actuated via CF and then the #3 Accumulator (Roll) picks up the residual speed hence the name Transfer Power. The Velocity Accumulator (#2) is a very short motion. Just make a left hand hammering motion without moving your arm at all. #2 is just inches from full extension at all times.

To get the Wrist Throw down without breaking down the Left Arm Flying Wedge you DON'T FOLLOW THE UNCOCKING (DOWNARD MOTION) WITH A HORIZONTAL MOTION (FLIP) . . . YOU FOLLOW THE UNCOCKING WITH A ROTATION (ROLL OF THE #3 ACCUMULATOR). You may have to learn this in sequence (sequenced release) Uncock then Roll all on the same line as in a Non-Automatic Release. Once you can perform the Motions then you can jack it up with physics and perform an Automatic Snap Release by using an Aiming Point procedure.

So G.O.L.F is essentially hammering on an inclined plane . . . .

Here's a GREAT POST from Lynn on how it works for 10-2-D . .. Go get your hammer, put it in your left hand and turn the head so it's facing left . ..

Experiment with a 10-2-B Left Hand and a 10-2-D Left Hand . . . . this will give you a visual of how it has to work.

So keep in mind this is HOW IT works . . . not necessarily your procedure. BUT I think that you can easier make it your procedure with a 10-2-D grip because you don't have any Swiveling to account for.

I have found that after you get this going into your motion for awhile, you may end up with TOO MUCH OUT. At that point you have to focus on Karate Chopping (Hammering) and taking your Karate Chop "around the corner" with your Pivot and Hand Path.

So after you work on this awhile . . . if you start hitting it "hooky" or "pushy" and missing it fat then you know you've overcooked the out part by having the arms run away from you and getting too much Axis Tilt and too soon.

Oops!
 

What part did I play in the confusion process? Let me make amends!

sorry
 

Okie-

Sorry that should have read 3Putt, and my thinking was in line with what he was saying. Keep up the posting, you throw out your fair of gold nuggets.

Great it wasn't me!
 

Phew, my TGM legs are shaky as it is! But I gotta say that for some reason it is important to me (and many others no doubt) that 3putt get satisfactory answers, being a fellow seeker and all. Don't exercise option c, 3putt...hang in there! I am telling you that this IS the best site in golfdom.

Hinging for Beginners
 

Dear Bucket,

This exercise is not intended for you because you know this stuff. But I’m writing you because you need to get 6” Bread Plate for this exercise. When you go to a Restaurant that offers cloth napkins, the Bread Plate is the smaller one about 6” in diameter and is placed to the left of the Big Plate that your meal is served on. Your Forks point to the Bread Plate. That’s the opposite side from your water glass. Normally, at KFC, they don’t give you a bread plate. Your bread is in a little box that comes with the big bucket of chicken. :)

Hinging for Beginners Simplified Explanation (Daryleze)

This is something I do to fine tune my Hinging options. I practice this a couple of time per week just to keep my thinking straight and Fine Tune my Right Hand Grip for the Hinge option I choose for a particular shot.

Hinging is the geometric motion of the clubface going through Impact. Rhythm is when the Clubface geometry at separation is a mirror image of the clubface geometry at Impact. Throw-away occurs when it is not.

Get a 6” diameter Bread Plate. Hold the rim of the plate in your Left Hand with the Face of the Plate against your Left Hand Palm and Wrist. This is a Left Hand Only thing to see Hinging Motions. Your Right Arm or Hand isn’t touching the Plate for this exercise. Just keep them away to understand the basic visuals of Hinging motion.

The Plate is your Clubface and your Left Wrist is Flat when holding the Plate.
Get into Posture at Impact Fix.

Horizontal Hinge: Move your Left Arm to the Right about 12”, and then to the Left as you go through Impact and 12" past. The Plate must Stay Vertical to the Ground so you will need to Turn your Hand slightly as you move to the Right and Roll your Hand as you move your Arm to the Left. Notice the Opening and Closing Only motions of the Plate. It doesn’t tilt.

Angled Hinging: Your Arm moves to the Right and then to the Left but does Not Turn or Roll. When you move your Left Arm to the Right, then the Face of the Plate still Faces the Ball (The Plate is no longer Vertical to the Ground). As you move your Hand to the Left, the Plate is Vertical to the Ground at Impact but then as you continue through Impact, notice that the Plate Closes and Lays-Back. After Impact, the Back of the Plate Faces the Ball.

Vertical Hinging: You get the idea; the Plate stays Perpendicular to the wall in front of you.

That's the bread plate!!! You gotta be kidding me!!! Man back in my courtin' days I'd always tell my lady friends . . . "yeah girl you can put your teeth right on that plate . . .that's what it's for."
Nothing hotter than a chick eatin' popcicles with her teeth on the bread plate.

What's a "napkin"? . . . is that some sort of family-reunion/orgy type deal? If I'm doing a "napkin" it ain't gonna be cloth . . . laytex man . . . and that cuzin better be hot or at least be able to make good biscuits.

:laughing9 :laughing9 :laughing9

I couldn't stay away!
 

Daryl....

Are you saying that horizontal hinging only applies for small portion of the arc around impact and not the entire swing?

3putt

3putt -Yes!
Once you get to the top left wrist fully cocked ,you do not hinge until after release.If you are swinging using automatic release the Roll is caused by the throw out action of centrifugal force,then at some point the flat left wrist must swivel to finish in order to keep that shaft on plane.

So at takeaway ,body rotation will roll the hands. -clubshaft and #3 pressure point are pointing at the plane line.

When shaft is parallel to the ground it should be parallel to the base of the plane line.

At any point after this until it reaches parallel at the top (if it ever does),then the butt of the club should point at the plane line.

Coming down,butt points at plane until parallel to ground ,when shaft is again parallel to plane.

As soon as the left wrist starts to uncock the shaft then points to the planeline-all the way through impact and followthrough -then at some point you finish swivel-again going parallel to the ground and the plane -after which the butt points at the plane line again .
Don't forget the plane line is INFINTE in both directions -so when the club is close to parallel to the ground-it will be pointing at the plane Miles away from you

Got to go, sorry it was rushed but I'm sure Daryl or Bucket will sort you out:)

3putt,

Did you watch the videos where Yoda talks about Hinge Action and Swiwel?

Basically, as long as the Clubface is "Closing Only" Through Impact, then yes. But notice that you can keep the Plate Vertical to the ground "Closing Only" Through Impact over a 4 foot head start arc, or as I do, over a 1 foot head start arc.

I Swivel and Turn During the Backswing. My Left Wrist is Bent and Cocked at the Top and my Right Wrist is Flat and Level. My Clubface is "Wide Open" as my Left Wrist Uncocks. My Hands are Past the Line of sight to the Ball when I Roll Into Impact. My Right Elbow is at my Navel. Because of this, my Left Wrist is slightly Arched at and After Impact. The Ball doesn't seem to go any Farther, but I like the sound. And "0" Throwaway. Boring type Trajectory, not low. Ball takes off like a bullet straight toward the apex. CF does all of the work. (Almost)

Homer Kelley is all about the Flat Left Wrist throughout the Swing. I can do that too, but my Clubface needs a 4 foot head start to make the Roll into Impact. Same Accuracy. Not the Loudest Sound. Same Distance. But no Less Risky to me. Trajectory Normal. Good Strike, that was nice, so what. :) I'm not flexible enough to have any less of a lead with a Flat Left Wrist.

You'll find all of this information in the Unabridged version of "The Golfing Machine".

1-K VARIATIONS
"Procedures that are not listed in their categories can, however, be examined and described in some manner understandable to their possessors and so become repeatable. This is the function of the “X” classification as explained in Chapter 10-10. Many variations are not listed in the Catalog simply because they are advisedly teamed with Variations that are listed. Applying them otherwise is a player’s choice and risk, but that does not make them Catalog omissions."

WOW...this cat is ready to walk away....after one month....dude...you have found where the gold is hidden ....digging is never easy but you have help here...and once you uncover it ...you will have it for a lifetime....as Tommy said " This shit isn't easy...understanding the words is the hard part...the motion is the easy part." Sorry if this burns you...I couldn't help myself...but it did make me chuckle:)

Thanks for the interest in my video.

Homer Kelley used the 1-L diagram primarily to provide a visual to the concepts listed.

The 1-L model only has similarities to the way that the power package structure in the human machine works within a real golf stroke. The power package has to take accumulators out of line inorder to move the clubhead according to the physics that God designed and Newton discovered. The power accumulators work simultaneously displacing the clubhead towards this goal. The 1-L model by its design does not have to contend with this issue, however the resulting effect between the two models is identical.

The flail that is described in 2-K has a swivel joint and is not merely a hinge pin added on the 1-L model. The swivel joint or accumulator no.3 is nessesary to move the clubhead onplane using the design of the human golfers power package structure.

Do not underestimate Homer Kelley's understanding of the golf stroke. If we followed your interpretation of 1-L in the post - angled hinging would take place at right angles to the inclined plane and vertical hinging would see the club parallel to the ground !!!! Surely after all those years Homer Kelley put into studying the golf stroke that you can at least credit him with a better conception than that!

Hope that helps....

Bucket goes down ! ! !
 

You are correct that - The club travels on a 2 dimensional inclined plane but in reference to the horizontal plane (the ground) the club travels in 3 dimensions. You are correct that when refering to the vertical and horizontal planes with reference to the horizontal plane these planes will have only two dimensions.

You are incorrect that - The vertical plane has Upwards and Downwards as its two dimensions because unfortunately those two are the same dimension - just think of a piece of paper with an x and y axis. The club can move upwards and downwards (one dimension) but it can also move forwards and backwards (two dimensions).

A tip - if you are going to tell the existance of a geometrical line you should say exactly how to draw that line. What your saying here is correct but incomplete because just stating a line goes through a point parallel to the ground without referencing that this line is on the face of the inclined plane to establish its forward direction isn't helpful.

Actually, no it doesn't. This would be true if the left shoulder was stationary, however in the golf stroke the left shoulder is moving in its own little orbit that contains an upwards direction and this brings the low point backwards somewhat.

I would of let this slide if you had said "for concept purposes" like you did earlier but this holds no such disclaimer.

This would be correct assuming the sweetspot gets underground which if it does your probably in trouble. The clubhead is bigger than the sweetspot you know :).

Again misquoting the book and/or misunderstanding the concept, the effort is not downwards in relation to the horizontal plane but downwards in relation to the inclined plane.

Part 2 - coming soon - Sorry Bucket - whahahaha &D:

Comming Attraction
 

I'm popping me some corn for this one!

Low Point Location
 

Mathew,

Does your statement assume the Left Shoulder's Adjusted Address location? If so, would "opposite the Left Shoulder at Impact Fix" satisfactorily locate Low Point?

I didn't hear that Matthew was released!? Usually, they notify me on these things. And that ankle bracelet was suppose to work if you logged into a TGM site- I'll have to check that out. Oh ya- that Bucket is my whipping boy- hands off!:happy3:

Mathew goes down!
 

Matthew Quote:
However in the golf stroke the left shoulder is moving in its own little orbit that contains an upwards direction and this brings the low point backwards somewhat.

Actually, not necessarily. This would be true if the left shoulder was moving in its own little orbit that contains an upwards direction IF the left arm/club was perpendicular to the shoulder line. The fact that it's normally not- "leans forward" i.e. the arm hasn't come across the chest completely, creates an offsetting factor. Also, you are assuming that there is no other downward movement of the clubhead as a result of the wrist uncocking or any other downward motion affecting the clubhead.

I would of let this slide if you had said "for concept purposes" or if you assumed a fixed "arm - club" perpendicular to the shoulder line (don't get nit picky on the perpendicular- if you need more details I'll supply it) but this holds no such disclaimer.

Should we go on Okie? Or do you need a moment to get a beer out of the fridge?

Can you prove the above? I'm not saying your wrong . . . but time somebody says "the shoulders turn perpendicular to the spine." You say, "What are your sources?"

So . .. What are YOUR sources?

Let's go dork.

Dear Dorkface, (I wonder what someone new to the forum would think?)
Yes, Of course- you need to prove any statement with additional statements if asked or show sources that can validate your proposition. During that process you either find out you're an idiot (hey- been there done that!) or find out that at least for now you are right!

I'm just saying that from a geometrical perspective- if you have one stick that represents the shoulder line (the clavicles move independently but we are just keeping them in-line for our example to prove the point at hand) and another stick that is 90 degrees to it i.e. perpendicular (obviously that's no exactly true either but again we are just isolating the essential issue here). Now, nail the shoulder stick to a wall- nail goes through the middle/half down the stick- i.e. at the neck/head if you are relating it to a golfer- with each end of the stick representing the shoulders. This stick is going to be able to spin around on the nail - like a spinning wheel- one end of the stick represents Matthew's "lead" shoulder - "orbiting". Here are the two scenario's:

1) If the second stick- representing the arm/club is perpendicular to the shoulder line stick- and attached at the end of the shoulder line stick where Matthew's lead/left shoulder is - then where is low point? It is opposite the end of the stick representing Matthew's left shoulder WHEN the shoulder stick is parallel to the ground. So this looks like a T except the vertical line is moved to the right side of the top line.
2) Now, when you change the vertical stick from perpendicular to the top line/shoulder line stick and make it at an angle to the top line stick 7 then low point isn't necessarily occuring when the shoulder line stick becomes parallel to the ground. You can move beyond parallel to the ground- have the left shoulder side of the stick continue to move "up" and the lower end of the vertical stick can still be moving down.

A few of the basic variables are how long is the shoulder line stick, and how long is the arm/club stick that is angled, and how much of an angle is the arm/club stick in relation to the shoulder line stick.

Bring back the questions - if your gravy brain doesn't understand what I'm saying or I'm an idiot. But before I go- here is what experiment I perform - that I would recommend that you perform to see what I'm talking about. Just take two pencils - and go through the above two examples and watch where low point occurs for the pencil that is angled in relation to the - "spinning wheel" pencil.

Better yet- just take your scissors and cut out a number 7- now hold the seven down with your pencil lead in the middle of the top line and when you rotate it- see if the bottom of the 7 - goes lower- down further - even when the "left shoulder" is moving "up" past the point of the top line being parallel to the ground. In either the 7 or the perpendicular one- low point ends up opposite the left shoulder.

SOURCES LISTED: MIKE O. and LOGIC

Are you wondering what a newbie would think if they saw you called me dorkface? Or what they would think about all the convaluted stuff you just typed?

Let me reread and do your little pencil experiment (tee'd it high . . . you let it fly) . . . I'll holla back.

(can a pencil be a source?).

Here's my simple version for Barbecue heads!

Matthew was saying that since the left shoulder was orbiting up- that low point wouldn't be opposite the left shoulder.

Take your scissors and cut out a number 7- now hold the seven down with your pencil lead in the middle of the top line and when you rotate it- see if the bottom of the 7 - goes lower- down further - even when the "left shoulder" is moving "up" past the point of the top line being parallel to the ground. In either the 7 or the perpendicular one- low point ends up opposite the left shoulder.

I've also heard from the head office that no one will room with you or be your partner in the best ball (here comes Jeff Hull to give me the USGA official format) - head office says that I must partner up with you in all ways imaginable! - for the October event. Maybe you can begin the betting chart for all teams- and two man teams need to register/announce on the forum!

The seven test
 

"Better yet- just take your scissors and cut out a number 7- now hold the seven down with your pencil lead in the middle of the top line and when you rotate it- see if the bottom of the 7 - goes lower- down further - even when the "left shoulder" is moving "up" past the point of the top line being parallel to the ground. In either the 7 or the perpendicular one- low point ends up opposite the left shoulder."

Mike O,

I cut out the 7, and by gum, it works! :salut:

UPP in snowy and cold Ohio

UPP- Could you call or PM Bucket- poor guy- it'll be a week before he could find a pair of scissors- figure out what 7 is- cutting the 7 will take him a week- he just needs some help- pitiful!:crybaby: :eyes: :happy3:

Bucket access
 

I am reasonably sure the Bucket is not allowed to have sharp objects. :naughty:

Playdough is about as good as it gets. :laughing9


UPP in snowy Ohio

What if the left shoulder moves up AND to the rear?

So we're partnering up in "all ways imaginable?" Do I bring the banjo and the motor oil or do you?

Do your dreams have Muzak?

UPP,
Do you see what happens when you don't make the house call!! :naughty:
Get your azz out of that snow and down to North Carolina to take care of my boy!! :3gears: I told you exactly what would happen- the boy hasn't even cut out his 7 yet!:( When you get there and get the 7 cut out- have him poke his lead (please Bucket- don't!)- through the 7 and then have that 7 circle around on an inclined plane- then he'll have his top of the 7 moving "up & rear" i.e. on an inclined plane. Have him report back after he's done that and let's see what he thinks. If he doesn't have his 7 cut out in the next 2 weeks- I'll be driving to Ohio- you wouldn't like that UPP:clown:

OK dookeyball . . . in your little 7 example on the inclined plane . . . would your "shoulder part" of the 7 not be turning perpendicular to the spine (pencil)? Is the shoulder turn "centered"? When does your 7 turn into an L and how does that work and then to a >?

Don't send that punk from Ohio down here . . . he won't make it through Virginia before he's squeelin' nekkid at some trailer park bonfire party being a target in the samich meat toss drinkin' game. Cold cut horse-shoes.

Mike O goes down ! ! !
 

Having the left arm perpendicular to the shoulder line at low point is actually an impossibility due to the power package structure being triangular in shape. The first time in a golf stroke that this shape is formed, is at followthrough - both arms straight and so even at this point, the left arm is still not perpendicular to the shoulder line. Any time prior to this - the right arm is bent making the angle between the left arm and shoulder line more acute.

Your statement implies that you think that this is even possible which is absurd and is completely offtopic and totally irrelevant. What bearing does the shoulder line being perpendicular to the left arm or not have on the FACT that the motion of the left shoulder center contains an upwards direction from impact to low point therefore moving the low point backwards a slight amount?

Sure, this is a slight offsetting factor whereby the clubhead is traveling in a circle around the left wrist, however the difference from impact to low point is nominal in comparison to the effect that the left shoulder makes on the clubhead.

There is nothing else that is going to make any effect on the clubhead going 'downward' motion that affects the clubhead downwards like your post implies.... this is again absurd.

My statements don't need to contain a health warning unlike some :laughing1.

I referenced low point and the fact that from Impact to Low Point the shoulder location moves upwards significantly enough to effect the low point and move it backwards slightly.

So No and No...lol

Opposite the left shoulder is the lowest point in relation to the left shoulder itself but not the lowest point in the clubhead orbit which occurs just prior to that.

Well I animated a power package structure remember and when I did so I found that low point exactly under the left shoulder was impossible. I didn't realise so many would have a problem with my low point statement.

Can I prove it - yes.... though you will have to give me time to create the graphics at which time I will start a new thread on this.

Trust me - you need a health warning!

I also just remembered that for me- your posts per thread - go on forever - without myself ever figuring out what you are saying. So I'm wrestling with the wrong tiger.

I'm with you on the perpendicular example- I just described it - as it was easy to show where lowpoint would be with a "machine" like that, before we moved on to a different "7" machine that might not as easily look like low point would still be opposite the lead shoulder but that was closer to your example of the golfer. So I really didn't mean to use the perpendicular example as something representing the human body- arm shoulder relationship. Then you bounced back to the human body- to show the absurdity of a perpendicular example. I'm with you.

My only point was in regard to your comment - I believe you mentioned that since the left shoulder was moving up before or when the left arm and clubshaft were opposite the left shoulder - that low point therefore would not be opposite the left shoulder but you calculated it would be slightly behind the location opposite the left shoulder. I used my "7" example to point out that the left shoulder could be moving up and low point could still be opposite the left shoulder. (Sorry ahead of time if I mis-quoted you) You may indeed be correct- but based on my simplistic "7" example- for me - I need more information to understand how low point is moved back- just because the left shoulder is moving up in an orbit- doesn't "prove" or "imply" to me that therefore low point can't be opposite the lead shoulder.

If you can disprove the "7" example (by itself) or elaborate on your idea with graphics or whatever else you need to supply- that would be great.

I like good discussions back and forth- those are the ones that you can learn stuff from. It's not my style to use impossible, absurd, etc. when posting but I've readily admitted that I'm an idiot at times- and Bucket has confirmed and not argued that statement when I have said it- although he's an idiot also- so I'm not sure where that leaves me!:confused1 Most of my posts are absurd- and maybe all of them are absurd- so you might have a point! In fact, I sense that Bucket may be posting soon- confirming that fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket
Can you prove the above? I'm not saying your wrong . . . but time somebody says "the shoulders turn perpendicular to the spine." You say, "What are your sources?"

So . .. What are YOUR sources?

Let's go dork.
Matthew,
Just so we don't misquote or mis-imply anything for the Bucket. That was the post that Bucket posted to me. I'm the Dork not you. Don't be trying to steal my Dork status- I don't like that! :eyes: Now pay attention here- we don't want to give Bucket any ammunition to speed up his attainment of his goal of 3000 posts before dinner.

Boys, boys,boys..........


I innocently stepped into a Mike O - Bucket Boy crossfire. It was an accident. Sort of.
Mike, Please let me know when you plan to cross the great state of Ohio. I would be pleased to extend some Midwest hospitality.

Buck, You and I shall have our day.........Cold cuts or otherwise.

UPP in snowy but about to melt Ohio

Yeah whatever....

Are you just going to take every piece of my humour and say it back. At least if your going to try and be funny at least come up with your own material. Its like being at school and one kid calling another some names and the kid saying back "well you are too...". Its just not a good comeback...

You know as well as anyone here that I know what I am talking about. Thats not being egotistic, its just I have done these things in 3D to test my knowledge. My threads generally go on and on because I try and describe the minute details of things.

I mean this is pretty simple and your overcomplicating by trying to add in unnessesary elements into the debate because your on the losing side.

Let me ask some very simple easy questions - Forget your 7 example - Just take the primary lever assembly and forget everything else....

The question is does the left shoulder move upwards from impact and through low point? - Yes that is a fact.

Since the left shoulder moving upwards does this mean the whole primary lever assembly is also moving upwards? - yes this is fact.

Since the whole primary lever assembly moves upwards and the clubhead is a part of the primary lever assembly - does this move the clubhead upwards too? - Yes this is a fact.

Since the left shoulder is continually moving upwards mean that this effect is only going to make the clubhead orbit have its lowest point prior to the point it passes the left shoulder when viewed directly from the front - Yes , Yes, YES....

Now, after I have listed these questions - your only possible counterarguement is that the clubhead which is moving around the left wrist which makes the clubhead radius around the left shoulder 'wider' (for lack of better word) could perhaps counteract this in some way. Unfortunately for you, I know this counteraction to be nominal because I tested it so your still on the losing side of the debate, so if you wish to go down this road then its ok by me....

No I didn't bounce back. Again yet another absurd arguement. When did I ever get off the topic of how it works in real life?

If your going to critique me of bouncing around at least use the quote button....

My post to Bucket was in an obvious comedic style with good spirited humour.
Your reply on the otherhand made no such obvious distinction to the comedic intention of the sarcasm and condescension. So don't be a hypocrit and whine about how I said your arguements are absurd. Your style could easy be taken (rightly or wrongly) as more insulting than me saying what your saying is totally wrong and bordering on the ludicrious, but gave you the benefit of the doubt that it was done in humour. So knock that ***t off....

Innocently??? Accident???

You know your goal in life is to be like Mike O (a degenerate anal incontinent mongoloid) . . .

Our "day" will have to be below the Mason-Dixon . . . I went to Atlantic City once . . . my pass go revoked.

Sorry to inform you but - he quoted me in that post.

Your ship is sinking btw :-({|=