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12 piece bucket 07-01-2007 09:27 PM

You boys are AMAZING!!! Y'all gotta love golf MORE than the dude hittin' the shots. This info is off the shingle good. One thing about The Machine is you can learn to strike a golf ball and control it. But y'all's stuff is about how to play think and score. I'd love the chance to play a round of golf with y'all.

Everyone talked about what detail Hogan used when preparing to play a golf course. Particularly at Carnoustie (right?). They didn't use "numbers" back then. What do you reckon those guys did?

HB and OK thanks a ton for an education!

mrodock 07-02-2007 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Overkill (Post 43333)
Pres Cup 2000

I went to the course a week before the matchs and spend the time doing my own book and charting the greens. Last match on Sunday the guys are tied; seventeenth green, other player has made par and my man has 6 or 7' for birdie and the lead. I'm standing over at he side of the green; both teams are there because it is the last match//(the Cup has been won but if my man wins his match it will be the most points ever) My man asked me to look at the put, I don't move I just tell him the put is straight; everyone laughs; someone says you din't even look; I say I don't have to, its straight;;; My pro says well can I put it left centre, I like left centre. I said sure, left centre, right centre, whichever fits your eye///the puts straight.

He makes the put left centre and wins 1 up

:salut:


You scare me . . . IN A GOOD WAY!

12 piece bucket 07-02-2007 08:43 AM

What do y'all see as the difference between a dude struggling to get on/stay on tour vs. the dudes that get it done?

Hennybogan 07-04-2007 03:52 PM

Old school
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket (Post 43334)
You boys are AMAZING!!! Y'all gotta love golf MORE than the dude hittin' the shots. This info is off the shingle good. One thing about The Machine is you can learn to strike a golf ball and control it. But y'all's stuff is about how to play think and score. I'd love the chance to play a round of golf with y'all.

Everyone talked about what detail Hogan used when preparing to play a golf course. Particularly at Carnoustie (right?). They didn't use "numbers" back then. What do you reckon those guys did?

HB and OK thanks a ton for an education!

Bucket,

I think that they used a variety of methods. One trick is to use a landmark (tree, trap) and remember you hit a seven from there. Another is to spend more time on the course. It is still an advantage for the veterans to have played the tour courses alot, but not as much as it used to be. On your home course, you know (or should) about what the various par threes play. You have a normal club for normal conditions and adjust from there. Pros often know what they want to hit on a par three before they even get the numbers.

My guess would be that the talent for feeling a shot would have been more important and developed in successful players of a previous era. Alot of tour players still trust that ability close to the green. We have already talked about using intuition as one of the factors. Another factor would have been local caddies. These days every player has a traveling caddie. In the old days the caddies would likely have a great deal of experience on the particular course but not much knowledge about the player.

I think that modern architecture plays a role in the need for all the numbers. I see more sharp edges, forced carries, etc. in modern courses. At St. Andrews and other firm courses with open run-ups, the numbers are just framework for the shot. So much more feel is necessary to play the bounces. It's quite a contrast from business as usual target golf on the PGA Tour.

Hennybogan 07-04-2007 04:30 PM

Getting it done
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket (Post 43351)
What do y'all see as the difference between a dude struggling to get on/stay on tour vs. the dudes that get it done?

Bucket,

The answer to getting it done or not is both very complicated and very simple. Simple answer is that the game is score. Nothing matters but the score. I'm sure you know somebody that doesn't look very good while he is winning all the money.

There are so many ways to stay on the Tour. Some guys just are not very consistent, but when the play good, they get paid. Whether they are mentally tough or just riding a wave of confidence, they get it done. Some guys are the opposite. They often get themselves in the hunt, but fall off at the end. They have to play well more weeks because of the prize structure.

The upper eschelon is the guys that play well often and get paid when they do.

Tiger Woods is the best player because he has the total package. The categories are: Power, Accuracy, Iron Game, Short game, Putting, Preparation, Management, Mental, Fitness, Strength, Desire, Record (concrete proof) etc. The only area Tiger sometimes lacks is accuracy off the tee. The other top players have similar skill sets. They all have great short games (VJ may be best given his putting). Some are shorter but more accurate.

As you go down the money list, you will find more things missing. Maybe he gives away shots around the green or gets mad (and lets it affect next shot). His bad shots may be infrequent but costly (penalties). He might not know how good he really is. He might have alot of these attributes but needs some help with alignments to go to the next level.

The more difficult the golf course, the easier it is to see who is really good and who's not. The "Bigger" a player's game is, the less he has to get out of it. Most guys have to be maximing their opportunities to reach the top of the leaderboard.

In general, no matter how good his long game, a top player will get better, relative to the field, the closer he gets to the hole.

Seanmx 07-06-2007 08:38 AM

Great Stuff
 
Thanks for sharing. Great stuff

12 piece bucket 07-06-2007 10:53 PM

You hear a lot of dudes talk about TARGET TARGET TARGET when they are hitting the ball. Then you hear a lot of dudes talk about PROCESS.

Some dudes say don't think about outcome and the target is outcome . . .

So what's the deal from y'all's perspective . . .

Is target a part of process or is it the process or should it be in the process?

Thanks!

B

Hennybogan 07-07-2007 01:31 AM

For a backward country bumpkin, you're kinda deep
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket (Post 43498)
You hear a lot of dudes talk about TARGET TARGET TARGET when they are hitting the ball. Then you hear a lot of dudes talk about PROCESS.

Some dudes say don't think about outcome and the target is outcome . . .

So what's the deal from y'all's perspective . . .

Is target a part of process or is it the process or should it be in the process?

Thanks!

B

Bucket,

Outcomes and targets. Targets are where we want the ball to go. Process is what we do to make the ball go to the target. Outcomes are all the noise. What this shot means. What my opponent thinks about it. How it affects my score. Whether or not I can make my birdie or par from there. What Johnny Miller is going to say. How the crowd will react. You don't really contol the outcome. You only control what you do (or not) and let the ball go. That's all you can do. I've read that Hogan used to wonder why people clapped: "How would they know what I was trying to do with the shot?" Hogan said he seldom hit more than a few shots in a given round just as he saw them, but it did not stop him from trying to hit exactly the shot he saw.

Might it be in the intention. The target is the target. 4.5 inches round. Some of us measure our worth as golfers (not people) by our ability to make the 1.68 ball go into the 4.5 hole. Outcomes are the finished product. It's what comes out of the paint booth. Shiny and clean, maybe with a little pearl mixed in to make it shine. But Bucket, we don't work in the paint booth. We're down there with the hammers and wrenches.

Where it gets done is on the assembly line. The target directs our process. Our process is what we do to make the ball go to the target. There is a distinction in here someplace. We have to do our work as though it has no outcome but still do our best.

Sing like no one is listening. Dance like nobody is watching. Love like you've never been hurt. Play like we're not keeping score.

So..... You absorb the target. Let it speak to you. Open your senses. There's a perfect shot in there (in you), and a perfect shot for every situation. You know that feeling you get far to seldom when you stand over a putt that there is no way you could miss. You see the line and you just let it go. That's the way the game is meant to be played.

So what do you do all those other times when the target does not speak to you (or you don't listen)? You act like you would if it did. That is your process. Act like you do when you know exactly the shot you want to play and how to do it. I'm sure Yoda has specific thoughts about a structured pre-shot routine (think I've watched a video about it). It begins before that. You analyze the shot (more to come on that), pick your target, pull your club, walk into the shot (Yoda takes over). Let it go. I've said this before. It's what you do over and over. The process is what you do to make the ball go to the target from the time you arrive at the ball to the time you let the shot go. The reason to develop your swing is to be able paint pictures on the course instead of chasing your ball around.

It might help to understand the difference between target and outcome by watching "The Open Championship" at Carnoustie. Instead of the normal medium soft green and the dart throwing contest that follows, we will see the course work its will on the shots. More often then not the ball will take the hop that sends it away from the hole. It could bounce favorably, but it usually does not. Watson says he won all those Opens because he likes bad bounces. Most players don't. So he kept doing his thing while every one else fretted about where their balls ended up. Watson gave up control. He knew he could respond to the challenge.

You keep doing your process until you have to pick the ball out of the hole. The you do it 71 more times. The one with the fewest processes "wins." Regardless of the outcome if you adhere to your process you win. You have done the best you could. That's all you can ever do. Sometimes they give you the trophy.

But... We like outcomes. We have goals. We practice hard, so we can win. We don't play in a vacuum. We know what this shot means. We want to look at the scoreboard. We want to come through in the clutch. We want to make the big putt to win the Open.

We have to be so grounded in our process that we can let all of our wants wash off of us and handle the shot before us. (The ball does not know how important this shot is to us. It will respond to the geometry).

HB

powerdraw 07-07-2007 09:29 AM

wow....now theres a great read on a saturday morning. Great great post.

Patrick O'Hara 07-07-2007 04:47 PM

Henny:
Great post! I agree, we all get caught up in the "wrong" stuff. My goal is to play 18 holes or 72 holes, whatever the case may be and not know where I stand to par or to my fellow competitiors. I would like to make each and every stroke as "like we're not keeping score".
Goods thoughts, sooooo let's go do it!!!

Pat

12 piece bucket 07-07-2007 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hennybogan (Post 43501)
Bucket,

The target directs our process.

Sing like no one is listening. Dance like nobody is watching. Love like you've never been hurt. Play like we're not keeping score.


So what do you do all those other times when the target does not speak to you (or you don't listen)? You act like you would if it did. That is your process. Act like you do when you know exactly the shot you want to play and how to do it. (The ball does not know how important this shot is to us. It will respond to the geometry).

HB


Great post! Nice jab too! Mike O will be knocking at your door in the gimp suit soon . . .

Target directs the process. Like that a lot. My stromie Drewitgolfsurfer says "Your target is the ball . . . the green is the ball's target." So it all comes down to the process basically being . . . picking a target and a shot letting it go and making a motion . . . learning how to overcome downstroke blackout . . . the the motion make the shot PROCESS.

Why do you think the the guys that hit it straight hit it straight? Does it start in the mind or in the hands or both?

Dance like nobody is watching . . . Mike O makes love while nobody's in the room.

Hennybogan 07-08-2007 12:54 AM

Process
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket (Post 43521)
Great post! Nice jab too! Mike O will be knocking at your door in the gimp suit soon . . .

Target directs the process. Like that a lot. My stromie Drewitgolfsurfer says "Your target is the ball . . . the green is the ball's target." So it all comes down to the process basically being . . . picking a target and a shot letting it go and making a motion . . . learning how to overcome downstroke blackout . . . the the motion make the shot PROCESS.

Why do you think the the guys that hit it straight hit it straight? Does it start in the mind or in the hands or both?

Dance like nobody is watching . . . Mike O makes love while nobody's in the room.


Bucket,

Defining the target is my big part of the equation. Learning how to think out a shot. That should be a big part of the content that I provide. I'm not sure there is one correct answer for everyone about the best way to do the "process." It is important that you have a process that includes the vital steps.

As far as what to think or feel when you are actually swinging, do what you need to do. I do think that the more you make your swing the same way time after time, the less concious thought needs to be employed (Litzke). When you are re-training a motion you will need more thought and practice swings (Faldo). I am reading up on "being in the zone." It's pretty deep. I'll let you know what I find out. Give me a day or two.

Straight hitters have good swings. I'm not sure about the mind and the hands. They tend to be level headed. They also are good at picking targets and trusting their swings to send the ball there. They don't hit many bad shots, so they don't get alot of noise about the trouble. They expect the ball to go where they aim. There is also the 100 in a row freethrow shooter in them. "I've made the last 75, so I should be able to make this one." Not--"I'm due for a miss." I also think their swings tend to be a little less dynamic. Not necessarily shorter, but not the type that really slings it.

HB

12 piece bucket 07-08-2007 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hennybogan (Post 43533)
Bucket,

Defining the target is my big part of the equation. Learning how to think out a shot. That should be a big part of the content that I provide. I'm not sure there is one correct answer for everyone about the best way to do the "process." It is important that you have a process that includes the vital steps.

As far as what to think or feel when you are actually swinging, do what you need to do. I do think that the more you make your swing the same way time after time, the less concious thought needs to be employed (Litzke). When you are re-training a motion you will need more thought and practice swings (Faldo). I am reading up on "being in the zone." It's pretty deep. I'll let you know what I find out. Give me a day or two.

Straight hitters have good swings. I'm not sure about the mind and the hands. They tend to be level headed. They also are good at picking targets and trusting their swings to send the ball there. They don't hit many bad shots, so they don't get alot of noise about the trouble. They expect the ball to go where they aim. There is also the 100 in a row freethrow shooter in them. "I've made the last 75, so I should be able to make this one." Not--"I'm due for a miss." I also think their swings tend to be a little less dynamic. Not necessarily shorter, but not the type that really slings it.

HB

How do you reckon them dudes develop such TRUST? Is it from banging 1000's of balls? Or something else? Do they just have it in 'em?

Hennybogan 07-08-2007 09:20 PM

Trust
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket (Post 43565)
How do you reckon them dudes develop such TRUST? Is it from banging 1000's of balls? Or something else? Do they just have it in 'em?

Bucket,

A trustworthy golf swing must be built through diligent effort. While it does not have to be perfect, the swing needs to produce quality golf shots time after time. To one degree or another every tour player has done this work. At some point in their lives, they have beat the balls. Many pros realize that the swing is just one part of the package, and they choose to spend more effort on routine, scoring, and management.

Of course, many pros strive to improve, and if they are fortunate and discerning, they get quality instruction and do make progress. Changing the swing will require more range work in the short term (maybe years). The better the swing, the less maintainence it should require, and the more reliable it should be under pressure. Tournament golf requires attention to every detail including fitness and rest. Players sometimes wear themselves out looking for confidence instead of preparing to play.

One of the big factors in trust is the nature of the miss. We all know how devastating the double cross can be. Ideally, the miss should fail to work towards the target rather curving across the target. My current preference is for a small draw that never crosses my stance line. Understanding the required alignments for the shot at hand should enhance confidence. Along those lines, as I develop my swing, I work only on this pattern. I'm just trying to make the same swing on every shot. Same set up--same thoughts. I will vary the amount of effort, but not the shape. So I only have to control a small number of factors.

So let's say we have a swing good enough to trust. What now? Trust is an individual thing. Some players feel like they earn good play through hard work. They hit ball after ball on the range to build confidence (VJ, Strange). Others don't need to put in so much effort on their swings to be confident. It may rest as much on their upbringing as their swings. The player's formula may flow from a lifetime of success or be forged in the long struggle for success.

Regardless of how hard you work, at some point you have to decide you have it. It is worthline to decide this every time you play and re-evaluate after the round. The point of all the work is to end up with a reliable swing. Trust is a skill that must be cultivated. Often a player distrusts his swing when the root of the problem is in judgement or routine. A player can stumble from trying a shot that he does not have or is more difficult than required.

The formula for success is building a strong swing and understanding the cause and effect. Then hitting lots of good shots and few poor ones. Then letting the poor ones go. You have to accept that you will hit some of those, say equal to your handicap, and move on.

Short game is clearly a factor as well. The difference in level of damage a poor shot causes is related to the score. Making a good chip and holing the putt changes the whole dynamic. The more confidant the player is on his ability to score, the less pressure he puts on his swing.

HB

12 piece bucket 07-08-2007 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hennybogan (Post 43586)
Bucket,

A
One of the big factors in trust is the nature of the miss. We all know how devastating the double cross can be. Ideally, the miss should fail to work towards the target rather curving across the target. My current preference is for a small draw that never crosses my stance line. Understanding the required alignments for the shot at hand should enhance confidence. Along those lines, as I develop my swing, I work only on this pattern. I'm just trying to make the same swing on every shot. Same set up--same thoughts. I will vary the amount of effort, but not the shape. So I only have to control a small number of factors.


Regardless of how hard you work, at some point you have to decide you have it. It is worthline to decide this every time you play and re-evaluate after the round. The point of all the work is to end up with a reliable swing. Trust is a skill that must be cultivated. Often a player distrusts his swing when the root of the problem is in judgement or routine. A player can stumble from trying a shot that he does not have or is more difficult than required.

The formula for success is building a strong swing and understanding the cause and effect. Then hitting lots of good shots and few poor ones. Then letting the poor ones go. You have to accept that you will hit some of those, say equal to your handicap, and move on.

Short game is clearly a factor as well. The difference in level of damage a poor shot causes is related to the score. Making a good chip and holing the putt changes the whole dynamic. The more confidant the player is on his ability to score, the less pressure he puts on his swing.

HB

Amazing stuff!

I have never thought about developing a shot that never misses across your stance line. I assume if you fade it there's a 'line' there too? How do you work on that deal?

This has to be the best thread on the site.

Thanks dude!

Hennybogan 07-08-2007 10:35 PM

The line
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket (Post 43589)
Amazing stuff!

I have never thought about developing a shot that never misses across your stance line. I assume if you fade it there's a 'line' there too? How do you work on that deal?

This has to be the best thread on the site.

Thanks dude!

Bucket,

It might seem strange but when I faded it, I had two lines, one for driver and one for irons. I wanted the driver to end up right of my toe line. I had three shots: heel cut (low and a little shorter with more curve), straight shot, and the right rocket. I did not know when they were coming, but it did not matter. I aimed just inside the left rough and hit it hard (think Duval). A bad one would be just in the left rough or right rough. With the irons, I wanted a pull cut to straight. I wanted to know that it would not go too much right, not cross target line. It is a very easy way to play. Eliminate half the course. I took some years off and it all changed.

How to work on that deal. Claude Harmon (from BH's The Pro) used to drop his considerable money clip on the range in front of his boys and say, "If I hit one left of that flag you can split the money." The boys never got any. That's practicing with a purpose and under real pressue.

I'll let you tell me how to hit a draw that never crosses your feet.

HB

12 piece bucket 07-08-2007 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hennybogan (Post 43591)
Bucket,

It might seem strange but when I faded it, I had two lines, one for driver and one for irons. I wanted the driver to end up right of my toe line. I had three shots: heel cut (low and a little shorter with more curve), straight shot, and the right rocket. I did not know when they were coming, but it did not matter. I aimed just inside the left rough and hit it hard (think Duval). A bad one would be just in the left rough or right rough. With the irons, I wanted a pull cut to straight. I wanted to know that it would not go too much right, not cross target line. It is a very easy way to play. Eliminate half the course. I took some years off and it all changed.

How to work on that deal. Claude Harmon (from BH's The Pro) used to drop his considerable money clip on the range in front of his boys and say, "If I hit one left of that flag you can split the money." The boys never got any. That's practicing with a purpose and under real pressue.

I'll let you tell me how to hit a draw that never crosses your feet.

HB

BH as in B=Ben H=Hogan???

Angled Hinge it?

Dude just when I think I can't get no better . . . you just make it better.

Hennybogan 07-09-2007 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket (Post 43595)
BH as in B=Ben H=Hogan???

Angled Hinge it?

Dude just when I think I can't get no better . . . you just make it better.

Bucket,

BH--just a typo.

You're the hinge action guy, so I'll defer. I'm rifling through the files here to catch up. I think in terms of face and path.

HB

12 piece bucket 07-09-2007 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hennybogan (Post 43598)
Bucket,

BH--just a typo.

You're the hinge action guy, so I'll defer. I'm rifling through the files here to catch up. I think in terms of face and path.

HB

Ball spins because of divergence right? So path slightly across target line and clubface square to target line at separation?

You may have much more detailed info on this . . . but I read that the face has much more weight with regards to the direction equation than the path like 75 to 80%? I'm still sorting all that out.

Uppndownn 07-09-2007 09:21 AM

More Gems
 
The formula for success is building a strong swing and understanding the cause and effect. Then hitting lots of good shots and few poor ones. Then letting the poor ones go. You have to accept that you will hit some of those, say equal to your handicap, and move on.

Short game is clearly a factor as well. The difference in level of damage a poor shot causes is related to the score. Making a good chip and holing the putt changes the whole dynamic. The more confidant the player is on his ability to score, the less pressure he puts on his swing.


WOW!!

WOW!!

WOW!!

The jewels just keep on coming. Great, great postings.

Thank you so much for your contributions. Has anyone signed you to a book deal yet?

Not you, Buckey. Have another moon pie.

UPP in steamy Ohio

nuke99 07-09-2007 09:30 AM

Yeah... HB can sure write. I bet your book will sell.

12 piece bucket 07-09-2007 09:37 AM

[quote=Uppndownn;43610
WOW!!

WOW!!

WOW!!

The jewels just keep on coming. Great, great postings.

Thank you so much for your contributions. Has anyone signed you to a book deal yet?

Not you, Buckey. Have another moon pie.

UPP in steamy Ohio[/QUOTE]
It may be hot up there . . . but the winter of your discontent is cold enough to freeze Mike O's taters.

Hennybogan 07-09-2007 12:20 PM

Spin
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket (Post 43607)
Ball spins because of divergence right? So path slightly across target line and clubface square to target line at separation?

You may have much more detailed info on this . . . but I read that the face has much more weight with regards to the direction equation than the path like 75 to 80%? I'm still sorting all that out.

Bucket,

I read alot here about face square at separation. I agree that a straight shot might be the optimal one in terms of the physics. I like a little curve in the shot, both for my eye and to give margin for error.

My understanding is of the condition is the face aligned between target line and path in equal amounts would result in a shot that curves to the target. For example, path 4 degrees right and face 2 degrees open. I think in terms of having the face open enough and not swinging too far right so the ball does not over-hook. I don't mind sending the ball a little right.

HB

Hennybogan 07-09-2007 06:02 PM

Missed it
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket (Post 43595)
BH as in B=Ben H=Hogan???

Angled Hinge it?

Dude just when I think I can't get no better . . . you just make it better.

Bucket,

Missed that one. BH=Butch Harmon. He wrote the book about his dad. I recommend it.

HB

powerdraw 07-09-2007 06:35 PM

i sware i havent followed a thread 6times a day in along time. This one is well worth it....

Henny, seems to me that there a fewer and fewer natural different swings out there on tour, you know the days of chichi, nicklaus, palmer and trevino had very different styles and the characters that came with it it seems...

its looking alot like cookycutter swings these days, is that a fad or fact of knowledge and general teaching? i'd like you view on this...maybe there still are a few characters you know of that im not thinking of besides freaky furyk of course!

just looks alot the same these days....is that good?
thanks!

Hennybogan 07-09-2007 07:04 PM

Cookie cutters
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by powerdraw (Post 43643)
i sware i havent followed a thread 6times a day in along time. This one is well worth it....

Henny, seems to me that there a fewer and fewer natural different swings out there on tour, you know the days of chichi, nicklaus, palmer and trevino had very different styles and the characters that came with it it seems...

its looking alot like cookycutter swings these days, is that a fad or fact of knowledge and general teaching? i'd like you view on this...maybe there still are a few characters you know of that im not thinking of besides freaky furyk of course!

just looks alot the same these days....is that good?
thanks!

Powerdraw,

More uniform does not necessarily mean better. My guess is the advent of TV and video is the cause of the cookie cutter scene. Young golfers, often adept at visual learning, have greater opportunity to see the tour swings of today and model them. They tend to "look" more like golfers. I don't know that modern teaching (present company excluded) has done a great service to the functionality of the swing other than producing powerful drivers of the ball.

The golf channel has been showing Shell's WWoG and others. Some nice looks at great swings from the 50's and 60's. It may be unfortunate for the current generation that the viewing of those swings was not more readily available as today's models were being formed.

I think that the swing fads will continue. People always copy the top players. Some say Hogan and then Nicklaus had too much influence on their public's swings. Our mission should be to get some nicely aligned golfers in front of the public eye a little more often for the sake of future generations. I know the boys here are working on it.

HB

powerdraw 07-09-2007 07:12 PM

awesome....as for the golf channel shell thing, having my first kid, now 6months old, i have had many a early morning shell show from 4am too 6am...the pleasure of watching naturals go at it and even commentating their opponents next shot!!!! wouldnt that be blast to see tiger decipher a phil mickey special live!

personnal opinion, (im going back to the different swings topic), is that having a chance to see more than one way to skin a cat leads to finding different personnalitys and 'sellability' of the game as well....

i mean, if everyone wrote the same way, you will never notice and applaud a good writer...same for the swing imo....

my dad always sang 'i did it myyyyyy wayyyyyy'....lol.

i think you are correct, there should be a mix of examples and results.

nice pickin your brain, no wonder some send a 'bucket' load of questions

Hennybogan 07-09-2007 08:15 PM

variety
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by powerdraw (Post 43647)
awesome....as for the golf channel shell thing, having my first kid, now 6months old, i have had many a early morning shell show from 4am too 6am...the pleasure of watching naturals go at it and even commentating their opponents next shot!!!! wouldnt that be blast to see tiger decipher a phil mickey special live!

personnal opinion, (im going back to the different swings topic), is that having a chance to see more than one way to skin a cat leads to finding different personnalitys and 'sellability' of the game as well....

i mean, if everyone wrote the same way, you will never notice and applaud a good writer...same for the swing imo....

my dad always sang 'i did it myyyyyy wayyyyyy'....lol.

i think you are correct, there should be a mix of examples and results.

nice pickin your brain, no wonder some send a 'bucket' load of questions

Powerdraw,

I've got some great footage from the shows of Player, Palmer, Snead, Venturi, Nelson, etc. Fun to watch.

As far as marketing, I think the tour is missing the bus. There are contributing factors. They promote only a select few, so when someone else wins it's Cinderella. Often, Cinderella has been making a steady run for years. The courses the tour selects, esp TPC, may provide drama of miss or make, but they don't offer a wide range of possible shots. Most courses want long, high shots. The players adapt to the conditions.

Now the tour has the Fed Ex Cup. It's an artificial way to get the top players to play the same week. It may be a fantastic month of golf. I'm concerned about the tourneys after. The draw to tournaments for tour players (who can't play every week) begins with the golf course and the title. Purse matters too. If the tour played more great courses, we would see more great golf, with the top players facing each other.

HB

Overkill 07-10-2007 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket (Post 43521)
Great post! Nice jab too! Mike O will be knocking at your door in the gimp suit soon . . .

Target directs the process. Like that a lot. My stromie Drewitgolfsurfer says "Your target is the ball . . . the green is the ball's target." So it all comes down to the process basically being . . . picking a target and a shot letting it go and making a motion . . . learning how to overcome downstroke blackout . . . the the motion make the shot PROCESS.

Why do you think the the guys that hit it straight hit it straight? Does it start in the mind or in the hands or both?

Dance like nobody is watching . . . Mike O makes love while nobody's in the room.


Bucket

I'm back ,chirping again

TARGET is everthing//// Players who hit it straight focus on their target, players who curve it focus on their target/// Players get in trouble when they get all hung up on results rather than being target oriented and just letting it happen. Example, last week, last hole Sunday (Cong) my pro tries to kill a 3wd and hit it way left into the trees. He gets a 'line of sight drop' but is still in the trees 200yds from front of green. Remember, this is his first week back after 4 Months off and his natural shot is not a draw/// He asks me if I think a 5 iron will run down to the green if he keeps it low and turns it, I say sure, I like it.

He takes the 5 iron, takes a couple of swings and hits this rocket which turns about 45 deg/ the ball splits the front of the green, dead centre and runs all the way to the back, about 20' from the pin//// Do you think there were many swing thoughts there, do you think he was concerned about results, or do you think he was thinking about his target and FEELING the shot.

We are walking to the green, the crowd is clapping and shouting, and he says, "I love those shots, they are so much fun to hit"

Also, a little putting example which may or may not fit in. My pro and I have putting contests from time to time. On Wed we have a 36 hole pull back tourn; pull back means that if you miss a put you have to pull it back the length of your putter and put again, so the shortest put you ever have is over 3'. After, 18 holes I have him 2 down and he says, whatever your thinking, just keep doing it. I thought about it for a second and then I replied, I'm not thinking about anything, I'm just looking at the hole and letting my brain figure everyhting else out. He said, I like it and the next 18 holes he made several long ones and no three putts.

By the way, he won, I was 4 over and he was 3. Again, it's all about your TARGET.

In a former life, I was a sniper and also instructed others. When you are setting up, you have to consider wind, humidity, elevation, temp., etc; IF YOU EVER ALLOW YOURSELF TO BECOME CONCERNED ABOUT THE RESULTS, YOU ARE FINISHED///////

:salut:

12 piece bucket 07-11-2007 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Overkill (Post 43707)
Bucket

I'm back ,chirping again

TARGET is everthing//// Players who hit it straight focus on their target, players who curve it focus on their target/// Players get in trouble when they get all hung up on results rather than being target oriented and just letting it happen. Example, last week, last hole Sunday (Cong) my pro tries to kill a 3wd and hit it way left into the trees. He gets a 'line of sight drop' but is still in the trees 200yds from front of green. Remember, this is his first week back after 4 Months off and his natural shot is not a draw/// He asks me if I think a 5 iron will run down to the green if he keeps it low and turns it, I say sure, I like it.

He takes the 5 iron, takes a couple of swings and hits this rocket which turns about 45 deg/ the ball splits the front of the green, dead centre and runs all the way to the back, about 20' from the pin//// Do you think there were many swing thoughts there, do you think he was concerned about results, or do you think he was thinking about his target and FEELING the shot.

We are walking to the green, the crowd is clapping and shouting, and he says, "I love those shots, they are so much fun to hit"

Also, a little putting example which may or may not fit in. My pro and I have putting contests from time to time. On Wed we have a 36 hole pull back tourn; pull back means that if you miss a put you have to pull it back the length of your putter and put again, so the shortest put you ever have is over 3'. After, 18 holes I have him 2 down and he says, whatever your thinking, just keep doing it. I thought about it for a second and then I replied, I'm not thinking about anything, I'm just looking at the hole and letting my brain figure everyhting else out. He said, I like it and the next 18 holes he made several long ones and no three putts.

By the way, he won, I was 4 over and he was 3. Again, it's all about your TARGET.

In a former life, I was a sniper and also instructed others. When you are setting up, you have to consider wind, humidity, elevation, temp., etc; IF YOU EVER ALLOW YOURSELF TO BECOME CONCERNED ABOUT THE RESULTS, YOU ARE FINISHED///////

:salut:

Good stuff! How do you connect target and feeling the shot?

Hennybogan 07-13-2007 11:14 PM

Feel
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket (Post 43716)
Good stuff! How do you connect target and feeling the shot?

Bucket,

I'll try this one. I thought Overkill might. Let's start with putting. I never want to be standing over a putt thinking about anything, not face or pace. I want my eyes to soak it in, and let the computer do it. Say I have a slow putt, uphill and into the grain. I'm not going to tell myself to get it to the hole or hit it harder. I will say, "This putt is uphill and into the grain," while I am reading the putt. I trust that the computer will add in that factor. If it is really fast, I might spot putt it.

For short game I just make practice swings looking at my landing spot. One player told me to take the contact for granted. He thought that trying for contact upset his touch.

I'm a big numbers guy, so for a shot that is less than full, I just think "152." Similar to the way I putt. I don't stand there trying to make a 7/8 swing or whatever. You might not use the number, you might feel different pressure. It is important to practice adjusting your distances. Try hitting a full 9 iron and then an 8 to the same spot on the range. Start with the wedges and go down through the bag to the 5 iron. I don't like fiddling too much with the longer irons other than to smoke one low.

HB

12 piece bucket 07-15-2007 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hennybogan (Post 43927)
Bucket,

I'll try this one. I thought Overkill might. Let's start with putting. I never want to be standing over a putt thinking about anything, not face or pace. I want my eyes to soak it in, and let the computer do it. Say I have a slow putt, uphill and into the grain. I'm not going to tell myself to get it to the hole or hit it harder. I will say, "This putt is uphill and into the grain," while I am reading the putt. I trust that the computer will add in that factor. If it is really fast, I might spot putt it.

For short game I just make practice swings looking at my landing spot. One player told me to take the contact for granted. He thought that trying for contact upset his touch.

I'm a big numbers guy, so for a shot that is less than full, I just think "152." Similar to the way I putt. I don't stand there trying to make a 7/8 swing or whatever. You might not use the number, you might feel different pressure. It is important to practice adjusting your distances. Try hitting a full 9 iron and then an 8 to the same spot on the range. Start with the wedges and go down through the bag to the 5 iron. I don't like fiddling too much with the longer irons other than to smoke one low.

HB

Make the motion not the shot . . . Impact is not a Station . . . . This stuff is much easier said than done. Sometimes I wonder why it is sooooooooooo much easier to turn things over to your eyes and subconsicious when you putt? When I putt good there is a lot more "let" in my game than "make." What you said above I think is huge. Take contact for granted and trust. Those guys on tour . . . there is NO WAY they are thinking about "at it" it's gotta be through it. I've been messing with this deal about thinking that the ball and club are like kick ball size . .. it has freed up my mind and let me go on through it much better. In what you have said above I think is where the secret of getting the most out of what talent you have is . . . it's in there somewhere. This game requires a huge amount of precision for sure . . . but does that mean that you have to consciously have to control it all??? Don't think so.

metallion 07-15-2007 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket (Post 43975)
This game requires a huge amount of precision for sure . . . but does that mean that you have to consciously have to control it all??? Don't think so.

True.

Do this: Grab a ball in one hand. Throw it up in the air and catch it. Now: Did you catch it because you were smart enough? Did you silently say NOW! just before your fingers closed to catch it? No. You did not think about a single thing. Still you can do it 100 times without failing.

Change green speed, i.e. Change from a golf ball to a metal marble to a feather. You catch them all.

Try not even looking at the ball as you throw it. You will still be able to catch, at least most of the time.

Try "telling" your hand were it need to be to catch the ball and "telling" the fingers/hand when to close over it. You will not do better, but probably worse.

The brain does it for you. I'll look up the English word for the brain function that does this, but that will have to be AFTER my grandmothers 97th birthday. :salut: Gotta run.

12 piece bucket 07-15-2007 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by metallion (Post 43979)
True.

Do this: Grab a ball in one hand. Throw it up in the air and catch it. Now: Did you catch it because you were smart enough? Did you silently say NOW! just before your fingers closed to catch it? No. You did not think about a single thing. Still you can do it 100 times without failing.

Change green speed, i.e. Change from a golf ball to a metal marble to a feather. You catch them all.

Try not even looking at the ball as you throw it. You will still be able to catch, at least most of the time.

Try "telling" your hand were it need to be to catch the ball and "telling" the fingers/hand when to close over it. You will not do better, but probably worse.

The brain does it for you. I'll look up the English word for the brain function that does this, but that will have to be AFTER my grandmothers 97th birthday. :salut: Gotta run.


NOT SO FAST BUSTER . . . Don't run yet!!!! Relate this to golf . . . what about aiming point and taking the hands down plane? Do we just see and the hands go? I like where you're going but don't be a tease . . .

Hennybogan 07-15-2007 10:58 AM

The computer
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket (Post 43982)
NOT SO FAST BUSTER . . . Don't run yet!!!! Relate this to golf . . . what about aiming point and taking the hands down plane? Do we just see and the hands go? I like where you're going but don't be a tease . . .

Bucket,

If you know how to quote another thread into this one please do. Refer to Yoda archives Chapter 14: "The Computer." It only shows 7 views. To me it should be the ultimate goal of the golfer:

"But finally may come the time when the intended Ball behavior could be all the conscious programming you need to do, and still produce the required Ball behavior."

In fact just reread all of Chapter 14. It is all in there already.

You have to learn the correct motion. You have to do enough repetitions that it becomes automatic. Once you have the motion deeply ingrained, you can interfere with the execution by trying to control it consciously. I will be able to share a bit more on this shortly.

HB

12 piece bucket 07-15-2007 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hennybogan (Post 43985)
Bucket,

If you know how to quote another thread into this one please do. Refer to Yoda archives Chapter 14: "The Computer." It only shows 7 views. To me it should be the ultimate goal of the golfer:

"But finally may come the time when the intended Ball behavior could be all the conscious programming you need to do, and still produce the required Ball behavior."

In fact just reread all of Chapter 14. It is all in there already.

You have to learn the correct motion. You have to do enough repetitions that it becomes automatic. Once you have the motion deeply ingrained, you can interfere with the execution by trying to control it consciously. I will be able to share a bit more on this shortly.

HB

Very good point on Chapter 14 . . . Above . . . do you think you should PLAY like this even if you haven't done enough repetitions to give yourself the best chance?

metallion 07-15-2007 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket (Post 43982)
NOT SO FAST BUSTER . . . Don't run yet!!!! Relate this to golf . . . what about aiming point and taking the hands down plane? Do we just see and the hands go? I like where you're going but don't be a tease . . .

I think HB answered how it relates to golf in his post above. Read for example about the five programming routines in Chapter 14.

Need more? Still some doubts about the yellow book? :) Ok, I'll give it a shot.

So: At some point we need to hand it over to non-emotional execution.

The English word I was searching for is cerebellum , i.e. Someone might comment that a little extra thinking about how we can help the cerebellum can not hurt, even though it seems to be in conflict with 14-0.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hennybogan (Post 43985)
Once you have the motion deeply ingrained, you can interfere with the execution by trying to control it consciously.

Even though all that sounds good, one question may remain. WHY? Why will conscious thoughts hurt?

Here's something. It may or may not be scientifically proved, but it sounds good (at least to me) and may be enough as a motivation for why we should leave it to the cerebellum, the Computer, the brain or whatever god-like function there is that does it:

Using the brain to outsmart the cerebellum would probably cause a distribution of fresh blood to other parts of the brain, leaving the cerebellum with less. Less blood to the cerebellum will not help it. So it seems perfectly logical to - during the shot - if anything - focus on shutting down all conscious brain activity while flooding the cerebellum with read hot steaming oxygen filled blood.



And: :golf:

Hennybogan 07-16-2007 12:25 AM

Brain stuff
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by metallion (Post 44006)
I think HB answered how it relates to golf in his post above. Read for example about the five programming routines in Chapter 14.

Need more? Still some doubts about the yellow book? :) Ok, I'll give it a shot.

So: At some point we need to hand it over to non-emotional execution.

The English word I was searching for is cerebellum , i.e.

Someone might comment that a little extra thinking about how we can help the cerebellum can not hurt, even though it seems to be in conflict with 14-0.



Even though all that sounds good, one question may remain. WHY? Why will conscious thoughts hurt?

Here's something. It may or may not be scientifically proved, but it sounds good (at least to me) and may be enough as a motivation for why we should leave it to the cerebellum, the Computer, the brain or whatever god-like function there is that does it:

Using the brain to outsmart the cerebellum would probably cause a distribution of fresh blood to other parts of the brain, leaving the cerebellum with less. Less blood to the cerebellum will not help it. So it seems perfectly logical to - during the shot - if anything - focus on shutting down all conscious brain activity while flooding the cerebellum with read hot steaming oxygen filled blood.



And: :golf:


Alex,

Here's a quote from a book called: On the Sweet Spot Stalking the Effortless Present by Dr. Richard Keefe. page195

"The brain imaging results from the study indicated that the prefrontal cortex became less active as the finger sequence became automatic. Several other studies have found the same thing, that prefrontal regions become less involved in a task as it becomes learned and engrained. As the subjects engrain the task, the halting sensations of the anterior cingulate are also minimized, and the person can initiate the movement without hesitation, without analysis, without what is experienced as thought. As the activity of the prefrontal, analytical regions diminishes, other regions become more active. The motor regions, which are responsible for the actions, become more active, as do the premotor regions and the supplementary motor area, which are involved in the immediate preparation to take action. As subjects learn to engrain the sequence of finger movements and rely on an internal rhythm to act, the energy devoted to the very specific act of preparing each movement heightens, and this energy is centered on the regions that generate the movement, not the ones that monitor them to see whether or not they're acceptable."

Dr. Richard Keefe is a clinical psychologist and neuroscience researcher and the Director of Sport Psychology at Duke University (from the jacket).

It is a complicated read. I've just been through it once. Keefe has studied the brain (MRI studies with rhythmic finger movements similar to piano playing--golfers don't fit in the machine) in order to understand what is going on when the athlete is "in the zone," so they can more easily enter The Effortless Present.

"These studies also suggest that if a task becomes fully learned and engrained into memory, the cerebellum will grow more active. It may be that the cerebellum becomes more active when a person has to work less at analyzing when or how to make a movement. Most studies suggest that the cerebellum is more involved in carrying out an action than it is in making decisions about when or how to act; the role of the cerebellum may be particularly strong in any sequence of actions that has a timed, rhythmic component to it."

The book suggests that we will be more successful if we allow the areas of the brain that control motor function do their jobs without interference from the analytical areas. It assumes alot, namely that our patterns are fully learned and engrained. That's why we practice. And we study because we want to engrain the correct movements. What if don't have these learned patterns. Good question. I do think that it is important to understand what is ideal some we can work towards it.

We also have to learn to switch the areas we are using. As we must use the analytical areas to help the define the shot we are then suppossed to trust to the motor function areas.

HB

Hennybogan 07-16-2007 01:51 AM

Also see new thread "learning golf"

spike 07-21-2007 12:17 PM

Thank you for so much insight....remarkable to say the least!

Got a boring question....How does a player prepare his bag?


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