Me thinks Bucket doth protest too much!:naughty:

Seems to me that we are saying the same thing.

You speak of Rhythm plus extention of the lever assembly resulting in major velocity - so surface speed is increasing dramatically but the RPM is the same . . . Law of the Flail.

I said that the invoking of Trigger Delay brought about the same result - an increase in Clubhead speed over the Rhythmic motion of the hands - i.e handle moving rhythmically being overtaken by the more pacey swingle.

Maintenance of a constant rhythm, even with a flail, would always prevent the swingle from catching up with, let alone being overtaken by an increase in Pace, the swingle.

I actually see where JK Rowling lives on my walk to work.... its one of the big mansions....

Harry Potter is a lady? I bet she had a helluva time in high school . . . and what is pace Harry Palmer?

Sounds pretty much the same to me based on the above . . . define swingle as a body part . . . Mike O don't you even think of touching that (no pun intended).

I knowed you was just fooling around . . . and me and Mikey REALLY DO HATE each other . . . ever since the time he was pullin' wings off of butterflies and then stickin' 'em in his nose.

I think Mr. K equated pace with hand speed . . . . could be wrong.

And as far as constant speed . . . it could be constant fast or constant slow right? And I think that one works better for big pulleys and one works better for small ones.

I bet you are cute when you get angry :happy3:

Huge connection.
 

There is a huge connection among those things, yet, you'd better leave them along. Because they are govered by "LAW".

BTS,

Good point - glad you brought it up.
How do you build your pattern? How do you know if you are mixing the wrong components that are compatible, i.e. within "LAW"?

Don't take this the wrong way, but if we left things alone because they are LAW, I think we would still be living in caves. But then again, sometimes things are "so simple even a caveman can do it." :)
(It's a Geico insurance commercial tagline we have in the States. I had to insert that for Buckets benefit.)

I'm getting off topic but this would make a good thread in "The Lab"
Universal laws and principles must be understood and tested. Their boundries explored and relationships to each other comprehended. Laws and Principles - Different but related. Is Centrifugal Force a law or principle? Should you tell a Hitter to use Centrifugal Force?

This isn't about metaphysics, it's basic science.

Then they can be used for a purpose and yes, even manipulated.
Another thread.


Bucket,

Homer mentions the need for fast hands in 7-18, but that is in relation to a larger #3 angle and circle path. Slower hands being effective for straight line delivery with small #3 angle for a snap release.

What about all these boys on TOUR with big ole #3 angles trying to rip the ball with fast hands. Are they more inclined to be circle pathers?

Triggers, Paddlewheels and Belts - Not the kind that are in your closet.

Collard Greens..... hmmmm.... I'll take the steak and let Mike O. shave Bucket's head! :laughing9

The swingle is not a body part; it is the clubshaft.

The handle is the left arm.

The Thong (don't get carried away with this word:redface:) is the left wrist.

The Rhythmic motion of the arm, or handle, when subjected to the non-automatic, delayed, trigger release of the hinge, or thong, would allow the extremity of the swingle, the clubhead, to gain in Pace.

I think.

Oh, Oh...Burner!

No Pig for you.
How do you like your Steak cooked!

Just so long as it is not my Goose that is being cooked then I will take the Steak just as it comes.

I will revisit "cocking" and "roll" to get a better perspective. Thanks.

Mikey borrowed them when he was sprucing up his closet for the big coming out party.

Now you have pounced upon my point of this here discussion in the first place.

In answer to your question . . . hell naw . . . we should absolutely not make them circle pathers. I think that is what Ledbetter was trying to do in terms of "de-Lagging" people.

The answer is here "overacceleration is the menace that stalks all lag and drag" . . . even on the PGA tour.

The simple answer is SLOW down . . . don't overload. Most of them dudes are Swangers. Mr. Kelley said CF wants to travel at a certain speed which is probably slower than what we want particularly under the gun. My analysis of Eldrick's bad shots is overacceleration. I think his alignments are fabulous. That small pulley can't handle that much speed without bustin' up the works.

Hall of fame post

I think Gregg McHatton is an extraordinary example of slow start down, small pulley, no chance whatsoever of overacceleration, and from what I've heard hits it a ton. His downswing takes 6 frames from what I could tell, and by just watching the swing I would have guessed about 10 or 11.

I'm gunna leave you alone now Bucket cause Yodas coming home soon and when he finds out about all the trouble I've been causing after breaking out of my wiring closet, he might take away my nerd badge.

But before I go, watchu got against circle path?
I'm not a big fan of it, but I've seen some pretty effective use. Why is it the black sheep in teaching circles. I have my thoughts about it, but trust y'all will work it out.

Thanks for letting me have recess.

Oh don't get me wrong I got nothing against Circle Path. Tom Watson was a sweepy type but he's got what 9 or so Majors? David Orr had a pick of a dude using Circle Path out here at one point and people freaked out and said it looked 'flickdid. But if he had just posted the impact pic . . . the same folks would have been like shaazaam! I think the Circle dealie is fine but inoder for you to get the same clubhead speed for full power shots you'd better be ready or have some hand speed. But for "arms shots" and short game shots and flops and non-pivot delivery strokes circle path is superior. Mr. Kelley said zero out your pivot and hit "full" shots arms shots and see what kind of distance and control you can creat. May be surprised.

I'm just trying to make a point that many who get jacked up about automatic snap releases and small pulleys and line delivery and max trigger delay . . . better SLOW DOWN to take maximum advantage of the mechanical advantage that a small pulley at the end of that endless belt presents.

I think that's why you see Tiger hit some weird out of character shots. He don't need another make-over. He needs to back it down just a little . . . he'd be nastier'n he already is. Think about that performance he gave at Ballibunion or wherever the heck that was. If he thought of the driver as his "play" club as Mr. Jones used to say . . . and brought the same sense of precision and reserve as he did those long irons rather than trying to come off the top rope, he may live on an $80 million dollar island, be #1 in the world and have one the hottest women on the planet as his old lady . . . uh wait a minute.

A. You don't need all that hand speed with a snap release . .. that's the whole point of the thing anyway.
B. The small pulley physically DEMANDS relatively slower handspeed . . . otherwise forget about precision alignments and potentially your flat left wrist.

Amen!
Keep preach'in it brutha.

The simpler, the less interrupted, the better.
 

I pretty much tried a lot, if not all, of the patterns, which pretty much all work, if given enough practice or maintainance and as long as the clubhead behaves accordingly. What left is efficiency, maintainance and reliability. Finally I choose (and teach) shoulder rotation and straight lead arm against "lag" as my default pattern, which all I need to do is "load and sustain the lag" by rotating, turning or spining my shoulders, just like the way the blades of the celing fan or helicopter are driven.

The "Lag" builds up, sustains and releases, the club and lead arm moves on a flat plane, the wrist bends or cocks and unbends and uncocks, the forearms turn and rolls (so does the clubface open and close), the pivot tilts, the head fixed, ..... on and on and on, you name it, which all takes care by themselves (or the "LAW").

The "LAW" usually gets interrupted, if any of the above has been tried to be accomplished. That is, if you pick it up, you tend to pick it more up or less up; if you aim it, you tend to over aim or under aim; if you roll it, you tend to over roll or under roll; if you tilt it; you tend to over tilt or under tilt;... on and on and on, you name it. It's a harmonious and highly coordinated event, during which the whole thing gets affected, if one of the components gets screwed.

So true. The "LAW" or "Principles" can be used to explain how things work and be applied to work things out. Yet, the result shows, if you do the right thing by executing the right "intent", regardless of knowing what behinds it. Knowing it won't hurt, knowing it and misapplying it hurt.
I don't worry about the food gets to stay in the guts for how long, but what I choose to eat, clean or not, healthy or not.

BTW, "Centrifugal Force" is a term called by certain people describing an inertial force, which can be explained by "Newton's First Law". I tell or teach a "hitter" to bend the shaft through the ball by pushing against the grip with both hands.

Sounds like 10-24-F is working for you and I think that's great. Pivot controlled hands is a viable option. Thanks for clarifying your "LAW".

Nice - score 1 for the circle path and short game control.

Very big point. I hope everyone appreciates this because it's golden.

Every time I see Tiger lash at the ball I cringe. Most times he gets the timing right because its in his DNA, but its not surprising to see his finish station as FORE RIGHT...FORE LEFT. A few minor tweaks and he will be untouchable for many, many generations.

Don't wipe the grease from your fingers yet. There's still a lot of meat left on the bone.
Discussed slow hands around the belt, straight line delivery vs. circle, rhythm, (pace) and snap/sweep release.

What happens to the paddlewheel when you hit the corner and when should you pull the trigger?
How do those TOUR dudes get away with such a big #3 angle at setup and still snap it?

I have to go now...really...I mean it...not coming back.

This is my analysis of the above (or non-analysis) of your second question . . .

I think it is really difficult to tell the amount of #3 angle present at address on many people and the TOUR dudes especially. Most of those dudes set up with "LOW" hands. The #3 Accumulator Angle is established when the Left Wrist is Flat and LEVEL. Most of the Tour dudes play from Standard Address with "LOW" hands and a Bent Left Wrist. I would surmize that as a result of their "LOW" hands, the Left Wrist is actually Bent and COCKED at address. So if you compared the down the line view of Address vs. Impact you'd see "HIGHER" hands at Impact revealing the true #3 Accumulator Angle. So basically I don't think you can make an assumption one way or the other from their "LOW" hands address position.

THIS AT ADDRESS


VS THIS AT ADDRESS


So alot of it has to do with not only the angle set but also waist bend and knee bend too.

I'm not sure I understand what you're axing in the first question . . . HOLLA BACKONDAT!

Bagger hollering from the wiring closet.

What happens to the paddlewheel when you hit the corner and when should you pull the trigger?

Read the second paragraphs of 7-18 and 7-20 as they relate to small pulleys...

7-18 . . .

Then understanding and executing the Left Wrist Action per 2-N-1, synchronizes the entire procedure. Trigger Delay alters little geometrical but magnifies the physics. The Paddlewheel Action of the straightening Right Elbow (10-10-C) initiates and sustains the #3 Accumulator Hand Motion (4-D-0) unit the Both-Arms-Straight and Zero Accumulator #3 position of Full Extension – but, of course, under the guidance of the Flat, Vertical Left Wrist Hinge Action (2-G). Accumulator #3 Action is not Lever Assembly Extension. See 2-P. With the Endless Belt Effect, The Belt (Hands) and the Clubhead have the RPM but the Surface factor sets in and gives the Clubhead greater MPH – in reverse proportion to the size of the Pulley (the smaller, the faster). That is, raised Hand Position – reducing the Accumulator #3 Travel –plus Trigger Delay. Conversely – a larger Pulley (lowered Hands) requires a higher Handspeed and an earlier Trigger. See 6-B-3-A, 6-F and 6-N-0.

smoothly, steadily with no change in the straightening or the Paddlewheel rate of Clubface Closing as set up AT RELEASE. Variations in Trigger Delay are possible ONLY beacuse the Cocked Left Wrist allows the Right Elbow to straighten faster than the Left Arm would otherwise allow (6-B-1) and the greater the Delay the more rapid the Paddlewheel Action and the more Swivel-like it becomes without increasing the actual Endless Belt speed of the Left Hand."

7-20 . . .

The term “Trigger” is used to denote that action which initiates the Release of the Power Package Assembly of Power Accumulators (6-B) to develop and apply force to the ball. It is the lengthening of the third side of the Triangle Assembly which moves the Lever Assemblies toward and through Impact per Pattern. See 6-M-0.

The procedures are termed “Throws” wither they “throw” or are “thrown.” They may be used individually or in combinations. The standard combinations are listed only in Chapter 11-20. Trigger Types are selected according to Release Type and Release Point as defined in 10-20 and 10-24 – that is, Sweep with Sweep, Snap with Snap, etc. For Hitters that means that Triggering (7-20), Assembly (7-21), Loading (7-22), Delivery (7-23) and Release (7-24) require an active Right Elbow and an inactive Left Wrist. For Swingers – vice versa. Study 6-C-2-A, 7-3 and 10-3-K. Remember – an “Active Right Arm” can be Monitored ONLY through awareness of an “Active Right Elbow.” Study 2-G regarding the Swivel and Rhythm. Maximum Trigger Delay noticeably restricts maximum Handspeed (6-N-0). Every Player has a maximum Handspeed and no amount of violent effort will change it much. However, that violent effort per 7-19, cause the Clubhead to fly out into its own orbit prematurely with typical Throwaway results.
WITH THE FLAT LEFT WRIST IN LINE WITH THE RIGHT FOREARM (7-2-3) THE #3 ACCUMULATOR "CLOSES" ONLY AS THE STRAIGHTENING RIGHT ELBOW - ACTIVE OR PASSIVE - PROVIDES THE BASIC PADDLEWHEEL MOTION FOR THE LEFT ARM FLYING WEDGE (6-B-3-0-1) AND FOR THE HAND MOTION PER 4-D-0. THIS IS THE TRUE "OVERTAKING" ACTION (6-F) OF THE LAGGING CLUBHEAD AS DIFFERENTIATED FROM LEVER ASSEMBLY EXTENSION IN 2-P. SO WITH DOWNSTROKE WAGGLES, VERIFY - THROUGH THE HANDS ONLY - THAT THE RIGHT ELBOW WILL BE ON PLANE BEFORE TRIGGERING TO ASSURE ACCURATE TRACING (5-0) FOR THE FOLLOW-THROUGH. ESPECIALLY WITH DELAYED RELEASE THIS WILL ROTATE THE LEFT HAND IN A SWIVELLING ACTION AS REQUIRED FOR RHYTHM (2-C-0, 2-G, 6-J-O).

Let me read on these a lil' bit and I'll holla back.

Another thought on your first question though . . . as a general rule more #3 Angle requires GREATER handspeed.

Lunch break.
I can't leave you hang'in and I've got to move on.

Let me leave you with this and feel free to poke holes -

The smaller the pulley and greater the release trigger delay, the faster the right elbow must straighten (#3 paddlewheel motion). So the hands may be moving slow around the corner of a small pulley, but that right elbow is straightening fairly fast as it helps turn the paddlewheel of accumulator #3 roll. It is a motion, not an action but the structure needs to be there through extensor action in order to accomodate the paddlewheel motion. The right arm is always trying to straighten. Not driving otherwise it automatically turns into Angled Hinging. It keeps an even, steady overtaking rate. The point I'm trying to make is that the right elbow must straighten faster with a smaller pulley than with a larger pulley.

That snap release, horizontal hinge can feel like a full roll swivel through impact. The RPM of clubface closing is faster with a small pulley than with a big pulley. Left wrist is in charge of hinge action, right elbow is in charge of RPM roll via the paddlewheel. None of this effects handspeed around the belt! We don't have to worry about this because centrifugal throw out action automatically lines everything up anyway. I'm just highlighting how the pieces come together around the corner of the belt.

Your observations on #3 angle at set up are what I was thinking as well. Must differentiate between left wrist cock at address vs. #3 angle as defined by where the clubshaft rests on the left hand heel pad.

For that matter, it's impact fix position that really matters because address is between impact fix and backstroke loading anyway.

It's been a wild ride Brutha, but fun! :)

This is a very important concept that differentiates swivel, from hinge action.

A great drill - go to release point and slowly practice straightening the right arm through to both arms straight.

Next trying it with 'low' hands vs 'high' hands.

You can take 'low' hands deeper before release, but you pay the price in the increased precision requirements in your Rhythm due to increased accumulator overlap. The key reason that sweep release is easier to control distances with IMO.

I think you got it licked! Very nice and astute post!

And how about this gem that ties up what we started this whole deal about from the sections you suggested . ..

Maximum Trigger Delay noticeably restricts maximum Handspeed (6-N-0). Every Player has a maximum Handspeed and no amount of violent effort will change it much. However, that violent effort per 7-19, cause the Clubhead to fly out into its own orbit prematurely with typical Throwaway results.


Summary . . . take the Right Hand Karate Chop down and through the Aiming Point like there will be no release at all . . . but keep the wrist soft so as not to disturb the Throw Out . . . do not ever Overaccelerate based on the above.

Have we done a nice job or what?

Enjoy it while it lasts.

There's a bunch of racket coming from MikeO's cellar.
He LOVE's the Paddlewheel talk.

WARNING: If your door bell rings and there is a paper bag on fire . . . DO NOT stomp out the fire.

Ed,

Very intriguing!
Can you expand on this?
Maybe add it to the drills section.

Thanks,

Nothing to say
 

Being the mature responsible adult that I am - I really have nothing to say

Sorry!
 

Mine is "LAG-controlled pivot".

IT PUTS THE LOTION ON ITS SKIN OR ELSE IT GETS THE HOSE AGAIN!!!!!!

Ha!
 

PUT THE F***IN LOTION IN THE BASKET!!!!


lololololol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Was she a great big fat person?

You're certifiable, man!

Its time to turn down the music and stop sewing now.
Put the Moths away.

Sheriff Bagger's back in town and my "Trigger" fingers get'in itchy.

Don't make me start posting in this thread again!

Great Thread
 

Great discussion going on over here....All have made such great points...now the hard part is translating it those students who have downstroke "blackout"



Pace in my mind is the direct relationship of the Hand Speed and the Surface Speed..I could be wrong and would stand to be corrected:salut:

Arc Velocity is surface speed

Arc Accleration is the result of the radius changing from smaller to larger

Angular Velocity is the rate of rotation of all components and their respective centers...in this case the radius in relation to clubhead travel controlled by #3 , Hand travel and turning rate of the pivot components

Angular Acceleration is the change in hand speed .....via the pivot or accumulators #4 and #1

Rhythm is the RPM roll of #3 and the turning rate of the pivot to maintain the same Angular velcocities or the rate of closure of the clubface, travel of the orbitng clubhead, to the selcted plane angle

If only terms like:

Arc Velocity
Arc Acceleration
Angular Acceleration
Angular Velocity

were used..it might help us differentiate...BUT

Bucket how bout posting the definitions of these terms with your infamous "Google Search"?


I'm going to go work on my Pace and my Rhytm today...Such simple "swing thoughts"

This came from Wiki Wiki Wiki Pedia . . .

Angular acceleration
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Angular acceleration is the rate of change of angular velocity over time. In SI units, it is measured in radians per second squared (rad/s2), and is usually denoted by the Greek letter alpha ().

Contents [hide]
1 Mathematical definition
2 Equations of motion
2.1 Constant acceleration
2.2 Non-constant acceleration
3 See also



[edit] Mathematical definition
The angular acceleration can be defined as either:

, or

,
where ω is the angular velocity, is the linear tangential acceleration, and r is the radius of curvature.


[edit] Equations of motion

[edit] Constant acceleration
For all constant values of the torque, τ, of an object, the angular acceleration will also be constant. Under these circumstances a rotating body conforms to the rotational equations of motion, in particular:


,
where

τ is torque
I is moment of inertia.
For this special case of constant acceleration, the above equation will produce a definitive, singular value for the angular acceleration.


[edit] Non-constant acceleration
For any non-constant torque, the angular acceleration of an object will change with time. The equation:

τ = α * I,

which is the angular equivalent to Newtons second law, and can be rewritten in the form seen above as:

.
This equation will produce a differential equation instead of a singular value. This differential equation is known as the equation of motion of the system and can completely describe the motion of the object.

Wiki Wiki Wiki

Angular velocity
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

Angular velocity describes the speed of rotation and the orientation of the instantaneous axis about which the rotation occurs. The direction of the angular velocity vector will be along the axis of rotation; in this case (counter-clockwise rotation) the vector points toward the viewer.In physics, the angular velocity is a vector quantity (more precisely, a pseudovector) which specifies the angular speed at which an object is rotating along with the direction in which it is rotating. The SI unit of angular velocity is radians per second, although it may be measured in other units such as degrees per second, degrees per hour, etc. When measured in cycles or rotations per unit time (e.g. revolutions per minute), it is often called the rotational velocity and its magnitude the rotational speed. Angular velocity is usually represented by the symbol omega (Ω or ω). The direction of the angular velocity vector is perpendicular to the plane of rotation, in a direction which is usually specified by the right hand rule



Angular velocity describes the speed of rotation and the orientation of the instantaneous axis about which the rotation occurs. The direction of the angular velocity vector will be along the axis of rotation; in this case (counter-clockwise rotation) the vector points toward the viewer.

Island Boy
 

That's some good Wiki Tiki!
Pick that skill up on the Islands did you?
Do you still fatten up your friends and then have them over for dinner?

I've been kill'in off spam that looks similar, but since you are our poster boy I have to leave it up.

Time to get your Ovaltine decoder ring and take it letter by letter. :happy3:

Hey Wiki Tiki some Arc Velocity and Arc Acceleration!!!:naughty: