The posed pictures are a joke. I have worked with page designers and editors hell bent on exaggerating pictures to "illustrate" a concept that in my opinion unfairly represents the instruction. The sequence camera captures the real centered motion. The picture were to illustrate the 'feeling.' Don't teach feelings- teach alignments. Feel what you want after the alignments. The graphics editor should not have used such large photographs to illustrate a feel instead of an alignment or even a fixed position.

Just my two and half cents- I have always been a odds with page designers when illustrating my instruction photos.

"Just line up perfectly"- Who said that Yoda?

Fyi
 

The poses and the practice swings are "exxxxxagerations" as for the "real thing" it's very centered and stable...how do I know?...I've been traveling with the infamous duo for the last two events... Aaron's actual motion is very centered stabled and very on plane with a very controlled Arc of Approach procedure...

Bucket ./...your right ...my sequence is what they are teaching...


Yoda...you've seen it live and yes ..might right forearm is not on plane at address...but you know it is at impact....


Why the jumping or extension?...try vertical forces and torques from the ground up to magnify the "wallop"....

You see...those on the outside think this article is all they teach...

I watched Andy manipulate the "Line of Compression" via the power package release sequence with Aaron to control the Arc of Attack, Arc of Approach, and the Rate of Closure of the clubface as it goes around the Hinge Assembly...If that ain't TGM...then I don't know anything about the "Machine Concept"

Bum Rap
 

Thanks, David. I know that magazine 'authors' often have no control of camera and pen. And as I stated in my post, Aaron's Motion did not reflect the exaggerated poses in the article. That is why I left the gate open.

I'll be on the tee next week at the AT&T Classic in Atlanta. If either Andy or Mike is there, maybe they would be willing to shed further light on what the article said and illustrated vs. what they really teach. Meanwhile, the ardent seeker without TOUR access is left searching for the truth.

Thanks for your insights.

P.S. Sorry I missed you in Richmond. We must have been only minutes apart. Next time!

This is "Stack and Tilt"
 

Here's what it looks like..."Stack and Tilt"




Lynn..I will be at the Cliffs...Sorry I missed you in Richmond...Hope all is well!!!

I have absolutely no problem with exaggeration for the purposes of instruction, so long as it is clarified as such. If it is not clarified, then the student will likely misunderstand the model. In this way, exaggeration can be counterproductive and cause the student to unknowingly traverse the wrong path.

Tee for two!
 

Annikan,

Nice to see you posting again. BTW, Congratulations on your PGA Class A Membership as well as your Instructor Authorization GSEB with TGM :salut: .

Thanks Drew....I've been very busy...Traveling and lessons...haven't had much down time ...Plus...I think LBG has pretty much covered almost all the cool topics in the book....You don't have to post much...just link to previous posts.....This place is like a Library!!!!


Did Slammin Sammy..."Stack and Tilt" ?





or "The Hawk"

nice photos dave.good to se you again in richmond.sounds like the discussion you and i had in richmond.i have played with hogan and watched snead hit balls.notice how bens hips have turned level and his flex has maintained in the backswing.as for snead i beleive in your photo he is using hickory shafts.look at the videos on this site.snead maintained his flex in his right knee also.as i told you i dont think the p-b swing is the most efficient way to swing.too many extra moves.sure bads gets his right forearm on plane at impact,but why not start there.
my other question would be,why dont they teach tracing a straight line.a hand controlled pivot is much more efficient than pivot controlled hands.also do you think that any of their players could go from hitting to swinging.i dont think so.but if you trace a staight line and use a hand controlled pivot a player would have the ability too.
hitters dont use their legs to thrust the club.i can say they have had great success with their players.and being a tour player myself that it all that matters.in all fairness i would like to see MR.KELLY'S WORK DISPLAYED THE WAY HE INTENDED.that is why i have so much admiration for lynn.tgm has had a bad rap for 30 years. everyone needs to get on the same page especially if you are going to say you teach the MACHINE.REMEMBER THERE ARE THREE IMPERATIVES TO THE MACHINE.i dont see these in tilt and stack.

John...nice post...

Do Plummer and Bennets Players swing on plane?

Do they have Lag Pressure and Sustain the Line of Compression?

Do they believe in controlloing the Rate of Closure of the Clubface as it orbits the Hinge Assembly?

YES....YES...YES...

Do they use the recommended pattern in Chapter 12?

No...Do you have to?

Do you have to set the right forearm on plane at a Standard Address?

Do you have to use the Visual Equivalents that are pretty much a requirement for a Hands to Pivot procedure?

Does the book allow a player to set up on the Hands Only Plane?

Is the player allowed to make plane angle shifts so as to aid the selected Pivot procedure?

Do you have to start and stay on the Turned Shoulder Plane?

Do Plane Angle shifts allow the player the verssatility in the stroke pattern to shape the Curvature and vary the Trajectory?

Is a flat shoulder turn a superior procedure than the rotated shoulder?

Is MORAD cxompletely Pivot controlled or only in the downstroke?

Does the Pivot and it's sequencing and spacing allow for certain delivery paths and delivery lines?

Do you think certain stroke patterns are built for an emphasis on precise Geometry and others on amplifying the Physics?

Do the students of Plummer, Bennett, and O'Grady swings lack in performance?

There are many answers to these questions and depending on how we have been trained or educated creates a bias toward or away from these variations?

We all tend to like what we are trained to see... and dislike those things we are trained to dislike...


The great thing is ..."latitude in instruction" ...

BTW for you "outsiders"...John Riegger is a helluva guy and talent...looking for good things to come in the near future out of this guy

See ya soon!!!

Lynn..you've seen my motion live...Does it work on the course?

Diff'rent Strokes
 

That it do, David. That it do. :salut:

good 1 dave,i am not saying it is not in the book,just not the most efficient way,imo.sorry i am going to miss you in greenvile i am taking that extra week off to spend time with the fam.i would like to talk with you in person again and see your action live.

Baddeley
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZH0_FS1Cg_g
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dwTjJTwCSs

Looks pretty good. Stationary head.

I agree with the above (especially the observation on the stroke sequence)....and believe this new swing model takes the player away from the 3 imperatives (the mind is leaving the hands). Just look to Homers use of the straight line delivery paths on both 12-1-0 and 12-2-0....this new model does not use that path way.

DG

John,

I think what they are teaching is a brain controlled pivot, not a hand controlled pivot. You may be right, however they are not teaching Homer's "Model" in chapter 12. The standard right knee action in the Second Edition is in, the right anchor is out, the flat shoulder turn is out, and the rotated shoulder plane is in. The Dual Horizontal Hinge in the Second Edition and the Horizontal Hinge in subsequent editions are out. The Angled Hinge is in, as it holds the club shaft on the plane and controls the rate of closure. After all we are trying to turn shoulders in a circle per 2-G right?

So which of Homer's Model's are you referring to? The Second Edition? Third Edition? Sixth Edition? They seem to change every edition.

Look, Look, Look, Its there you just have to Look.

Grant Waite At Richmond
 

Grant Waite and I worked again after the third round of the AT&T Classic in Atlanta. Specifically, the alignment in question was the Hands to the Right Shoulder (and the Turned Shoulder Plane) at the Top. His were a bit low -- he knew it -- and we were immediately on the same page. Also, his Left Hand was slightly Rolled (to the left of Vertical) in his Grip. Finally, in part because of the above misalignments, his On Plane Right Forearm Tracing during Start Up was not as he wanted it to be.

We saw each other again at the Nationwide's Melwood Prince George's County Open in Maryland this week. In Atlanta, we had talked of getting together then, but given my prior commitments at the tournament site, our schedules unfortunately didn't jive. So, except for a few minutes during his pre-round Tuesday warm-up, we saw each other only coming and going from the practice tee and golf course. We did manage to spend 15 minutes of very productive time in the locker room after Thursday's round. There we discussed his 'work in progress' and the possibility of a Swamp visit in the next week.

Grant is known for his search for Golfing Truth. I am not the first golf instructor to experience his pick axe. Nor will I be the last. But for now...

We have met in the arena.

Our mutual goal is the best Golf Stroke he is capable of producing at this time.

We have an understanding.

And that is enough.

:)

--------------------------------------------------


The Photos (from Tuesday of the Henrico County Open in Richmond, Virginia, April 27, 2007):

#1 Before: Right Forearm at Address. Note that it points well inside the Plane Line.

#2 After: Right Forearm preliminary positioning at Address -- down the line view.

#3 After: Right Forearm positioning at Adjusted Address -- front view. Note the background pole marking Pivot Center (Head) aligned "precisely between the feet." [This is a natural landmark, not a super-imposed graphic.] The Clubshaft is Right Angled to the Line.

#4 After: Back to Adusted Adress. Note the Standard Address alignments (10-9-A) with Left Wrist Bent and Right Wrist Flat (or nearly so). Again note Centered Head.

#5 Addressing Positioning, confirming Target/Plane Line. Note Pivot Center (Head) background mark. Per 1-L #2, "The Stationary Post (Player's Head) can turn (Pivot) but it does not Sway or Bob."

#6 Fully-Assembled and Programmed Adjusted Address. Again, note Pivot Center (Head) background mark. Compare to the Centered 'white-marker' in 9-1-3 (Address) and 9-2-1 #1 (Preliminary Address).

#7 At the Finish. The Head has moved freely to align itself with the Left Leg and Weight Shift at the Finish. This alignment reduces the strain on the back (after the Follow-Through / Both Arms Straight position) and is always the player's option.

Lynn, what did Andy and Mike have to say to you about the GD article. You mentioned a possible post on that.

Here is som video of Aaron Baddeley demonstrating "Stack&Tilt".
http://www.zshare.net/video/2050005e94858d/

http://www.zshare.net/video/20500126beb6bb/


Does it look loke those weird pics in the article? Don't think so... But when I try this I FEEL like Plummer but look more like Badds

GD really screwed up- or at least the art director. The largest pictures in the article were to show 'feel.' How obsurd.

Agree, absolutely absurd, ruined the article in my opinion.

Gotta say that the "cult" comment about put me off cool aide! I allowed both my Golf Digest and Golf World subscription to expire (my wife was jubilant.) I will buy a copy from the news stand when they feature Yoda, or another sincere Kelley disciple. What aggravates me is that although there is an obligatory nod to The Golfing Machine, they retool the lingo to suit the "my way" approach. I do not expect them to reference the book as expertly as Yoda and Ben Doyle do but doctors don't reinterpret what Gray's Anatomy standardized, right? There is no profit in it; and patients would probably die! There is too much transliteration for the purpose of marketing out there. Perhaps I am bitter but a great many so-called swing gurus appear like "occultists" to me, by the way they shroud their secrets in a mystical fog of semantics.

A Memorial Day anecdote. I passed the "burger flipper" to my 8 year old son over the weekend, making him my BBQ aide decamp. I discovered that flipping burgers is not as easy as one one would think! We lost some ground, and beef before I introduced him to the hands controlled pivot! I explained that if he focused on turning the burger over with the spatula that it would make the task tougher, but if he focused on turning his hand over, palm down that the spatula would comply. "Flip the spatula with the pressure points in your hands, young padawan!"

Back to my tirade...Ironically, and sadly the quick-fix tendency of homo sapiens, and the committment to study and incubation that TGM demands relegates Homer Kelley disciples to the "few in the know", making TGM seem like the Illuminati! Real thought, not merely rearranging your predjudices, is the hardest of all work someone once said.

I raise a flat left wrist and and a bent right to Yoda for making his teaching MESSAGE centered as opposed to MESSENGER centered. Beside my own (which I nurture) I find egoism repugnant!

Okie

PS I shed a tear when upon returning from a session on the range, my son asked "How those flying wedges, Dad?"

In search of Bobby Locke!
 

Nice post Okie :salut: .

………..S & T golfer is in the last group at the US Open.

Do you really thing that the mass of the public would hear or understand what flying wedges are? That is for teachers to know. The average player just wants to hit it well. At the most they just want to know how to get rid of the worst miss on the course. Once you have the success of this than you can (spoon feed) them with small doses of information.

One of the best coaches in my area does not use video or gets into much other than ball flight. He works with some very good players on the tour. John Mallinger and Merrick are a few. He is very big into keeping the players cool and organized. Andy and Mike I know do just this, with the TGM background to fit.

So my big say in all this good and bad of stack and tilt. It is more of the growth and being organized with the situations that are being dealt. Many of the guys that have been with me for over two years or more are now products of the environment they are in. I am in hopes that it’s positive for winning events. That will also reflect the information that is being spoken weather its TGM or Morad. I also however don’t have the chapter and verse background of TGM.

May the course be with you,
Dana

This attitude is typical of the way I was treated when I first received instruction from local PGA instructors. Although I did not know what existed, I was still appalled at the paucity of information imparted during a lesson and it was the key reason I looked elsewhere for inspiration. Fortunately I stumbled across Yoda and “The Golfing Machine”.

So you really think that joe MOST average golfers really care? Thats off base and your speculating.

Heck I know very good players whom don't care. Im not saying I don't.

The GD write up was fine for the average player. It did not get to out of there grasp. That way when they do look for further information the TGM crew can spoon feed them.

I am going to add one thing. For me, I always have people come in for as much time as possible for there first lesson. If they are really looking for a swing (change if needed).
I will also give them as much video examples of great players, showing what they do. BTW the three TGM hot points are always hidden with this lesson.However the terms used are very basic. If I used my M**** terms with the player, such as windows of ball flight. It would be sloppy on my part.
The best thing we could do as teachers is develop a player develop there trust so that they can sit down with us in the future over lunch and golf swing talk.(bring your laptop)

The yellow book to many is a big fence to most. We as teachers have to show the golfing world how to climb to the top of it....

Spot On
 

Dana,

What you have said is spot-on.
As an accomplished TGM teacher (see http://justintanggolf.blogspot.com) who can quote the book chapter and verse with the best of them, that is something that I steer away from.

Though most TGM devotees on this site would beg to differ, most students really do not care what book you are teaching them from, whether its TGM or MGT. What they truly care about is whether you personally care about their games and whether you are able to get them results.

If you truly understood TGM, the delivery will not be very difficult.
Let's put things in perspective. If I were an oncologist, opening up a textbook on oncology would be mind-numbing at the first.

However with more time spent in the text, the terms and definitions will become more and more comfortable.

When a patient comes for a consultation, do I then give him the essence as simply as possible (translate) or do I tell him what's in the book verbatim?

If you truly knew something, you would be able to simplify it without making it simplistic. There is a difference and Dana Dahlquist knows it. Trust me.

Mr. Kelley put it this way...if he could do it all over again, he would just do three things.

1. Set his flying wedges.
2. Take it up and down the plane.
3. Add a hinge action.

Just my Point of View- what what it is worth(less).

Instructors many of us are not. But this is and may be the only place where you can talk verse and chapter. I don’t have a golf instructor- this forum is my instructor. Many decided that they wanted to understand The Golfing Machine without the burden of earning a living as a golf instructor and I believe Yoda understood that many non- professionals wanted to understand what Homer Kelley wrote when he began this forum. If Kelley’s book were to be left only in the minds of golf instructors, it would again old day revert back into obscurity. Thousands knowing a little is better than hundreds knowing much.

You can learn verse and chapter here; you can learn a golf stroke on the lesson tee. It is a heck of a lot easier for an instructor to speak TGM to me than what passes as instruction elsewhere. But I’m lucky. Instructors like yourselves can’t cater only to machine heads and pay the bills. I chose not to go to an AI who said he doesn’t teach using TGM terminology; that wasn’t going to help me one bit in the long run. I know I am not the run of the mill golfer looking to grab a lesson package and I know how tough it is to be an independent contractor and earn a living.

The ‘Home Office’ never cared about forums like LBG or even their old one. They seem to be embarrassed by amateurs talking verse and chapter. They want to sell books but not teach it except through an AI who may or not want to teach through it.

off topic-
I’d like to know what the Home Office thinks about Lynn Blake and his Tour guys that are doing so well. What was their reaction to hearing Lynn’s name mentioned with The Golfing Machine- an ex-AI who they said never sold a copy of the book for them- on National TV?

Good post guys.
With all this being said, and I am but an outsider(darksider).
What is the future for TGM?
I have seen bashing come and go for many years. Still its the best system for teachers and students to learn.
It also is in the here and now of some of our latest tour winners. (John and Jay)
For me personal reasons aside, would it be best that the TGM arena reaches a bit more out to the new golfers.
-Juniors
-Local and National Golf expos
-PGA teaching events

Mabey its pie in the sky, however Ive not seen much in the PGA's meetings.
I may be off base, or it may be in the works.

May the course be with you,

I agree most golfers just want to hit better shots. All eyes glaze over when I start to answer questions about TGM in any depth.

I, on the other hand, am a seeker. I was the kid who de-constructed all of his toys to see how they worked, then re-assembled them. The only time I ever get angry on the golf course is when I don't know "why." Bad execution is part of the process, but not knowing gets under my skin.

While I have expressed my curiosity to my many PGA instructors, none has shown me what's "behind the curtain." Some were unwilling to do that work, some (most) were unable to effectively communicate those answers, and some just didn't know or weren't sure. Lynn was different. ;)

I am a professional educator. If I had been a better golfer I probably would have become a teaching professional. The reason I opted for the so-called more cerebral career path ironically is becasue I did not "get" the golf swing! I knew that it would be a smoke and mirrors side show! No doubt I would have been able to convince the garden variety golfer whose inexpereince or ineptitude would be the perfect cover for the likes of me. Throw some jargon....add a little lingo... stripe a few drives and they follow like rodents to a penny whistle! I am not suggesting that you reach a master status before you can teach a novice the basics, but I am all too aware of the saying that goes something like "...those that cannot, teach!" I chose a field in which I am well trained and reasonably profficient. My resume as a mediocre player in a mediocre college golf program was simply not enough. My talent could not overcome my ignorance any longer!

My real point to make was that I believe people can be catergorized as "artists" or "mechanics" with regards to how they assimilate information. Some of my students "just get it" almost intutively, while others reach that point after much blood, sweat and tears. Genetic predisposition, conditioning or whatever some people catch on about this and the other quickly while others have to mull it over. We do not all incubate at the same rate I would suggest! It is a rare find to discover someone that is both an artist as well as a mechanic - a savant with a work ethic! I think Tiger fits that bill. Nothing about TGM's technical nature would upset his finely tuned competitve balance in my opinion. For some people more information might seem to be detrimental, while others will improve as a result. However, I do believe that innate talent (the inner artist) doing its own thing, unconsciously as it were, has a shorter battery life, than the knowledge/understanding or mechanic approach. When knowledge and potential collide...hello world!

This is where golf is truly a great game. As Mr. Kelley suggested you are going to get the ball in the hole at some point no matter how poorly you play! The ratio of mystery to complexity you exchange is mostly up to you!

I think Mr. Kelley gave us a wonderful gauge for our sincerity as it pertains to our desire to improve our games. If you cannot do basic motion for more than 10 balls in row then the jig is up! If you have not yet bought dowel sticks then then the jig is up! I recall a story...Ok partially...where Jackie Burke agreed to help an up and coming youngster. He sent him off to sink several hundred three footers in a row, or something to that effect. In essence, many people end up siezing the engine by refusing to spring for the oil change! All inevitabilities are brought to pass by some kind of effort.

Not to get too analytical but people "reject" TGM and its vernacular because the book suggests an "IS" condition in the universe as opposed to the la la land of their own fabrication. I recall a statement that Mark Twain made about how he envied the awe with which a primitive man must have viewed a rainbow, unspoiled as it were. I like Twain but what a load of (insert expletive.) For the mystically inclined there are still things that science and objectivity do not speak clearly to...the golf swing is just not one of them!

What was the topic again? :confused1

Free To Choose
 

Great post, Okie. The quote above is particularly telling. Thanks!

I think I can speak for all when I say it is always nice to hear from Lynn T. Blake aka Yoda.

There was a time when nothing redeeming could be said about me or any of my like-minded compatriots! Making my momma proud!


Okie out

excellent post david i admire your dedication and always respect your opinion

Testing "stack and tilt"
 

What seems remarkable to me about how Stack and Tilt actually works is how people seem to be able to pick up the system after reading a magazine article and with no formal instruction. I read through a Gold Digest blog that included responses from people who had tried the system. A large number had great success, some just with their irons and down, and some across the board.

I absolutely love the Golfing Machine and this website. I haven't even been tempted to try a single golf tip, not part of the Golfing Machine since I signed up 2 1/2 years ago. I have had to work hard to learn the Golfing Machine on this forum. But it was well worth it, and I definitely enjoyed the process thoroughly. It seemed strange to me that people were reading a Golf Digest article and all of a sudden getting great results with the new system. Then there is the 4 golfers who have won their first tournament after taking lessons from Plummer and Bennett. So I reluctantly decided to see what all of the fuss was about. Last week at the range, after reading the two GD articles a few times, I gave it a personal test. From the first ball, I started hitting with more accurate compression, and alignment. Not having to retrace the precise distance to get back to the ball, was a huge benefit for me. I not only hit the irons, I also hit the woods and even my driver quite well. A second practice session also resulted in significantly improved results across the board.

This was surprising because I am a hitter, and it doesn't appear that "Stack and Tilt" has a hitters version. Today I went out and played 9 holes. I had my best driving day of the year, hitting 3 or 4 drives well passed my previous personal best hits. My hitter background should have been a real stumbling block. But it wasn't. I really do think "Stack and Tilt" is about geometry. The "Stack and Tilt" swing seems to have substantially more rotary motion in hit than my previous swing. The club is going back even shorter and even further inside. It also is going further inside on the way forward. Aside from the more consistent ball striking, the ball contact because of the more rotary swing feels better than what I was previously experiencing.

As a former wrestler, I chose to be a hitter instead of a swinger because I wanted to take advantage of my my strength. The "Stack and Tilt" swing provides additional leverage for me in my shoulders and upper torso because of the shorter distance back and through. So even though I am out of the hitting business, I don't feel I am making a hip centric gyroscopic swing. Also the proof is in the pudding, 15 yards to a 64 year old guy is a big deal and something positive seems to have clicked in, at least at this point.

Three days is not a fair test of a system. But the extra distance and consistency is tempting, along with the more rewarding ball flight. I sincerely hope this post is not deemed disrespectful of my absolute favorite website on the Net. If you think I am someone with an agenda, read my prior posts over the last 2 1/2 years and see for yourself my enthusiasm for the Golfing Machine.

The other side of the coin
 

I did a short-game golf clinic today for a little over a hundred kids with Brad Faxon. Prior to the clinic we were talking about "Stack and Tilt". Faxon was surpose to be the poster child for how not to swing according to Bennett and Plumber. Brad tried it for that reason and had little to no success with their Stroke Pattern. He actually got worse. He has since gone back to work with GSEM Ron Gring. Faxon had previously work with Gring when he felt he was hitting the ball the best a few years ago at the Hawaiian Open. However, it will be a while before you see him playing on tour again. Additional injuries (recently torn muscles arround his rib cage) prohibit him from making a full swing. So while "Stack and Tilt" may work for some, it is not the secret everyone is looking to discover.

BTW, Faxon has watched some of the videos on this website and is well aware of Lynn's work here and on tour.

Drew,
Pretty cool a clinic with Brad Faxon. Don't you have a big presentation coming up to the RI PGA?

Machine Heads
 

Thanks for reminding me. I had better get working on it ;-) . Also presenting at the end of September will be A.I. David Orr (Annikan Skywalker) and Tom Cavicchi former New England PGA Teacher of the Year. Should be fun.

drew as you would know...I love being in NC with David, but what a treat it is to be in New England for anyone :laughing9

thanks for the words lynn ill clarify if i may....love the site. you are correct in that we advocate no backstroke weight shift. i disagree with your analysis of the shoulder turn and refer you to 2g and later 2h Shoulder motions. "the point may be made that is impossible to inscribe perfect circles while center is in motion. that is the turning shoulder. the straight line requirements of the compression point are satisfied as long as both horizonal and vertical centers move precisely in unison. directional control remain stable because both centers are moving precisely in a circle....THAT IS THE CIRCUMFERECE OF THE SHOULDER TURN." there are anatomical considerations for the shoulders to turn in a cirlcle as you know. my first question to you is how do you rectify turning the shoulders turn in a circle and transfer the weight on the backswing? translating only the hips would tilt the spine to the left....translating the hips and the head would violate the circle requirements. next, how do you reconcile the change of standard knee action from edition 2 to right anchor in later additions?? as it seems to me the right anchor flattens the hips and shoulder turn? the flatter than rotated shoulder turn change the horizonal component of the backswing and translate the axis of the shoulder turn back to the right....violating 2g(later 2h)......of course all bets are off if you allow the hip and shoulder turn to both move back equally (lunge equals sway). all the best