I know it's Homer....

We're allowed to question him too tho you know.

There we go. If it works then do it...

Spine tilted to the target?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=pU89bMedpeE

he deserves the trust
 

Then you agree, they're not just random quotes.

He has earned enough trust and respect through his research to deserve my trust. When I find something that he has suggested that doesn't work, my trust in his words may wane. But, until then...

Now that's an unreasonable oversimplification, Birdie.

Your final quote as I would restate it:

A brilliant man spends 42 years writing a book on golf.

He uses the laws of physics and geometry to develop a machine concept.

He catalogs the human movements to match the machine, not vice versa.

His research IS NOT based on "if it works", it's based on law.

Therefore, if the laws of physics and geometry work for you, then use them.

Hula Hula
 

Birdie,

A reverse pivot is not so much a spine angle issue, but a malfunctioning hip turn. The weight shift to the rear leg is usually accomplished by the turning of the hips. A faulty hip turn leaves weight, or places or the load on the forward leg and the weight is "reverse" shifted to the back leg on the downstroke.

In most backtrokes the lower spine is closer to the target than the upper spine. But the head can still remain centered between the feet at the top the stroke. The reason it appears to be closer is because the lower spine is already slightly tilted towards the target at address. In a full stroke, the hips must "hula hula", but the head can and should stay centered to avoid the other big pivot malfunction.

Swaying.

Hey man no one ever has said that it CAN'T work very well...

No I didn't agree. That is beside the point tho IMO. The point that I think is most important is that we should be allowed to question anyone....even Homer.

And no not just for the sake of doing it or for any agenda....you all know I am a TGM guy....

Fair enough.

If it works in your teaching that is the point that I'd respect above the others.

EDIT: I initially read your response too fast and missed part of the point...I edited this part of my post accordingly.

I disagree....this is part of science.

I dunno what you'd call it....field testing? Something like that.

If you try everything on every kind of person over a great length of time....and find out what works best consistently for the most people.....how is this unreasonable??

That is science.

Then of course you can assign the "WHY does it work?"....

"What works best" is basically the ultimate benchmark in my view.

....

I know the "brilliant man/42 years of reasearch" stuff holds a good amount of ground (to some people more than others of course)....I mean.....Homer is a guy who's opinion COUNTS.

But....anyone and anything is questionable....no one is perfect.....and Homer wasn't done researching when he died either.

Would he have come to different conclusions if he lived a few more years? Who knows...

Doesn't matter tho cause there's more than one smart person who has studied or does study the golf swing.

....

Another point that I think could be relevant is the amount of time Homer spent on the lesson tee.

I do not know exactly how much but from what I can gather he didn't do a lot of "real world" teaching (relatively speaking)....teaching every different kind of person of every level of play....day in day out in seeing what works most of the time.

I know he taught some...I'm not EXACTLY sure how much...but I know there are people with WAY more experience day in day out every single day trying to get people to play better golf.

We gonna discount that opinion?

...

BTW there is LAW in physics and geometry.....and yes Homer did APPLY those concepts (and very well obviously) to his work....

....but to claim that that then makes Homer's work LAW....I know that is a stretch.

i.e. "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction." (or however the heck it goes)....

....LAW. (period)

"keep the head precisely between your feet for all shots"....

....law??

I can agree with that. It is the cause....

(....of a spine that tilts towards the target in the Backstroke...)

Question: are there or have there ever been any GREAT or even VERY GOOD players with a reverse-tilted spine at Impact?

I would crap myself right here right now if there were.

Not to say you can't get to a rearward tilted spine at Impact with a "tripod" type pivot....

If it works better for most people for every club and every shot is the real question I guess.

Believe me I don't like a MASSIVE sway either....you must have A center as Lynn said.

Choose what works best for yourself....

I don't know that anyone has ever HAD a beef (but who would I be talking about...) or could/would ever HAVE a beef with someone doing the "tripod" if it worked better for them.

Really that should go for anything that works for anyone.

The real question as you put it is this-how would a machine built like a human do it?

Why consider everyones abilities, habits, limitations? It just leads to band-aids i.e. I can't do X so I'll do Y cause that works better for me. X is the way whether the golfing public can do it or not.

Uncompensated, precise, that is TGM to me.

Golf instruction is another topic.

But humans aren't machines....and Homer's machine looks nothing like a human.

It's theoretical man.....I mean.....it's all logical really...

1L: "The Post may turn (Pivot) but does not "sway" or "bob."

Very logical in theory (esp. for a machine)....but theory none the less.

I know it's Homer etc. etc.....but it's theory...what can I say.

...

I'm not even gonna sit here and argue what I think works best most of the time....that one we've been thru in depth.....all it'll ever do is go back and fourth.

All I can really ever say is do what works for you....if you've given each a good honest try and something works better for you then that would be good enough for me...and should be good enough for anyone.

Whatever works......

I mean, you can throw as much theory and "Homer says" and other junk at it as you want but the bottom line is I want my ball further and straighter down the fairway from shot to shot and I'll do whatever does that for me.

I don't see why you'd want it any other way.

That's the thing tho....

And it relates to what I said above.....

That's only if you take this all as more than theory.

Homer was the man yes....

But what is uncompensated, ideal, perfect, etc? It's debateable.....

I don't even know what else to say but I hope you get my point.

In a way, it's one facet of the topic.....

i.e. swing training vs. long-term swing goals....

i.e. if a student reverse pivots get em to turn their left shoulder over their right knee in the backswing to train the pivot....then once that's trained you can teach em whatever pivot you want. And no I don't think a "tripod" is always the best long-term goal.

I just do not see why everyone cannot see this...

This is really simple....



It is not the 'look of the back' on the backstroke viewed from the front....

Whilst it hard to precisely draw the spine from the front view without the rear pictures - this will be pretty close and useful for demonstration purposes.

An old photo...
 

Check this out....



Remember the hip action is slide-turn - where else is the spine supposed to go...

Mathew,

Where did you get the Snead photo? Is there an entire sequence?

Matt

Backstroke Spine Tilt
 

I'll answer for Mathew.

Annikan provided the photo at my request to begin a thread earlier this year. If he has the entire sequence, I'm sure he would be happy to post it.

The point was to make obvious the true direction of the spine tilt in the Start-Up and Backstroke, i.e., the bottom moves slightly away from the Target with the Weight Shift (a Hip Motion) as the Head remains steady. It is the Standard Pivot (10-12-A) and Standard Hip Turn (free Turn and Weight Shift / 10-14-A) illustrated in Photo 9-1-5 of The Golfing Machine. It is not a Reverse Pivot.

In contrast, some instructors -- perhaps even most -- teach that the top of the spine tilts away from the Target in the Backstroke. They label the move as an "athletic" Pivot. I label it a Sway.

Look again this rear-view photo of Sam Snead and draw your own conclusion.

Spine
 

Mr. Yoda,

This is good information, and the picture(from Annikan) sheds a different light on the SPINE, HIPS, KNEES, and HEAD during this part of the PIVOT.

Have you come up with a ZONE 1 PIVOT DRILL or EXERCISE to help people see how this works, or is CHAPTER 9 IT(a pivot drill)?

From Columbia Encyclopedia : "Machine, any arrangement of stationary and moving mechanical parts used to perform some useful work or a specialized task"

Humans ARE machines.

Gravity is another theory, but accepted as fact.

At the end of the day we either accept a theory as fact-like gravity-or deny it because the theory doesn't seem to fit the evidence we observe i.e. when I try this I don't seem to hit the ball as well as this other way.

The preface of the book is the heart of it all, IMO. I have accepted the idea that for human shaped golfers, there is only one golf stroke, period. It may not work best for ME, but that doesn't contradict the idea.

Uncompensated, ideal, precision,-like PING Man. It's not debateable.

Common Sense Biomechanics
 

My appeal is to common sense.

Standing erect without a club and while keeping your head still, shift your weight to your right foot. Do not turn...simply allow your weight to go to your right side.

Which part of your spine moved with the hips? The top?

Or the bottom?

:)

One Geometry...Endless Variety
 

But it must "work" for you, Sonic. That's because the "One Stroke" described in The Preface refers to its Geometry, i.e, the relationship of the Circle (Clubhead Orbit / 2-N-0) to the Plane Line.

Happily, the Stroke Pattern used to accomplish that essential Geometry is entirely the player's option. And here the choices are virtually unlimited.

O c'mon man....in the real world no one would call a human a machine in the same way as they would call a dirt bike a machine...

Or we could keep arguing semantics......c'mon now...

Yes it is.....that doesn't mean all theories are fact though.

And besides.....golf swings are unique....

Yayaya.....but Homer obviously didn't mean it that way or else we would have:

"The Golfing Machine....chapters 7 and 10......24 Components with 24 Absolutes...and no Variations."

No eh....ok.

K so we have a few pics posted of various players....

All with different Strokes BTW....

I don't know EXACTLY where these people's spines are so I would only be guessing...

Snead's could very well be where you've drawn it...

Although this is only one picture of him taking one shot.....and also only one player throughout a mass history of great players....if you're right tho it would prove that it CAN work for people.....I know that already tho....it wouldn't be a problem with me.

...

To me, I think your spine (the one beside Snead is you right Mathew?) is more to the right than where you've drawn it tho...you can see the indent in your back......no?

...

Adam Scott....I dunno.....isn't that pic the one that's edited from the one where he was hitting on an upslope?

Regardless, to me, his head is slightly to the right of the red line (given, only a small amount...to me)...and as for his spine....I dunno lots about spines....but that doesn't look right to me. (where you've drawn it) Anyway tho I'm no expert on spines and this picture may not be a good one to analyze anyway.

And....regardless of all THAT....I don't think Scott is a guy who keeps his head Stationary anyway (and I don't think keeps it in the center of his feet either)....need more pictures.

Maybe if we found pics of him with a short iron it would show more of a "tripod".....maybe....

Hey birdie_man,

It looks like Adam is hitting a tee shot so he is not likely contending with an upslope. The head seems to be more rotated than laterally away from the center-line.

What is Homer's view on rotating the head? Necessary? Helpful? Adds another variable? (this question is posed to anyone)

Matt

More Common Sense And the Pivot
 

The Pivot is a free Motion, but it nevertheless demands stability. That stability is provided by the Feet and Knees (at its base) and by the Pivot Center (fixed at its top). At the player's option, the Pivot Center can be either the Head or the 'point between the Shoulders.'

After careful consideration, Homer Kelley, author of The Golfing Machine, recommended the Head Pivot Center. Others prefer the 'point between the shoulders.'

With either Pivot Center, the top of the Pivot is stable. By definition.

Now let's think:

The spine connects the Head and Hips. The Hips move laterally -- this is the Weight Shift -- in both the Backstroke and the Downstroke. As the Hips move back and through, so does the spine. And because the top of the spine is attached to the Fixed Pivot Center, its bottom must move away from the Target in the Backstroke and towards the Target in the Downstoke.

It is strange that many who preach as gospel Downstroke 'Axis Tilt' fail to understand Backstroke Axis Tilt.

Such is the power of misconception.

:)

Sigh...

Anyone got a wall I could bang my head against....:BangHead:

Yes that is where exactly where Sneads spine is.

Yes that is precisely where my spine is.



I don't think you can deny it birdie - that is where the spine goes.

Your definition of a reverse pivot is a spine tilting away from the target. Your assumption was that concentrating on a stationary head causes a reverse pivot. I said that the reverse pivot is a fallacious term because NOTHING is going in reverse.

So basically what your saying is that Adam Scott, Jack Nicklaus, Ben Hogan, Sam Snead, Moe Norman, Harry Vardon, Bobby Jones and pretty much every great player in history has a 'reverse pivot'. Ok .....:rolleyes:

Snead uses a standard anchor thats why the spine tilts to the right. As leg straighten to the direction of the turn = tilt towards that direction .

Question 1;
A reverse pivot is keeping most of the weight in front feet during the back swing. But does it qualify as a reverse pivot? How does this "reverse pivot " by sam snead in anyway benificial or Not benificial to a swing since, the Pivot reacts to the path of the hands.

Another question:
I also notice that if the head is not right at the center of the feet but more of center of the shoulder ( not center), there is a tendency to bob down slightly during downswing. AlA Ben Hogan etc. You tend to bob down a touch. Is my observation correct? I think the reason Homer Kelly prefer center of the feet.

Matthew .. thanks for making the point and you have to stick the tapes on the back to show it . I salute you in the spirit of letting everybody learn golf. The Golfing Machine way.

I draw the lines, you draw the conclusion
 

No dice Tonzilla..lol

They are not a sequence - but the two frames I took with my digital camera seperately on self timer. I could of easily walked into a different spot, I may of put the camera down at a slightly different angle, I may of swayed... who knows....

The intention is to only show the position of the spine relative to the hip action.

Try again

The Head Can Swivel
 

Per 1-L-#2:

"The [Stationary] Post [player's Head] can turn (pivot) but it does not Sway or Bob."

Thank you very much Yoda!

NM my bad....

I thought it was a pic that was edited from GDigest's website but I just checked and it's the same on their website.

I dunno Homer's view on rotating the head but as far as I know everyone does it.

As far as how much this affects how someone's pivot looks...I don't know.

Before Yoda clarified above I thought stationary head meant that one should not rotate it. Most golfers would likely have extreme difficulty with a head that does not turn whatsoever on the backswing.

Cool cool. And no doubt Homer did consider very carefully.

BTW I realize there is seemingly a large void between "Homer Kelly" and "others"....but that's ok.

To me, who said what is not so much the determining factor.

So who is a model of this? Monty? (correct me if I'm wrong...and I'm honestly not trying to be cocky BTW)

Works for Monty....and Freddie Couples....and Sergio (I think)....

All I know is that not everyone pivots like that....

And that a lot of very good golfers (seemingly the majority of the most successful golfers....including some of the best ballstrikers) do not keep their head Stationary. (and/or Stationary between the feet)

From "Joe blow" PGA Tour Player (I say "Joe blow" but really these guys are among the best 150 or so players in the world) to some of the best ballstrikers in history even...

I'm not gonna make a list but I think it's fairly obvious if you look at a bunch of pictures of the best players and best ballstrikers...

And I don't want to say that this is the sole reason why these players have risen to the top.....or that no one does the "tripod" (although it does seem to me that less do)....but hey.......

.....does this mean these players could be/could have been better then? I don't know....

I may have missed something...not sure....anyway....

I can't speak for anyone else really....but I dunno that it's so much of a misconception as to how it works...(although I could be wrong)...

More as to how well it works. (as far as every golfer, or even the majority of golfers, is concerned)

Forward Thinking
 

Now you are getting somewhere Birdie. Keep thinking along those lines because LBG is basing our entire future on it. Stationary head and tripod center are just two elements of a more precise golfstroke. There are many more. If you look at our tagline we are about Precision and Power. Can the best in the world make use of more precision? What about the hacker?

I'm sure you can find one for yourself if you try hard enough Mathew....lol...

Or a stress ball.

Know what works good? Give the meaty part of your index finger a good solid BITE!!....(hey I guess that's PP#3 eh ;))....makes the frustrations of life just melt away man...

Ok there you go....maybe if that pic was posted in the first place. I only denied it because the first pic didn't show that as clearly.

Regardless, those (u and Snead) are only 2 pics....and only one was a world class golfer. (and it's only 1 pic of Snead)

Here's another:

http://asafgolf.free.fr/images/golf/...snead_face.jpg

Still a lot of hip slant but there you go....there's A pic where his head isn't Stationary OR centered between the feet.

And his spine isn't tilted towards the target either.

But it's only 1 pic....

Nono- towards the target. To me, ya that's more or less what it is. (although there are different degrees of tilt as well as different degrees of how well it works for people)

Really...as to not overgeneralize.....what I REALLY think....is it isn't a good pivot for a lot of golfers.....like most slicers....and I don't buy into the idea that it is optimal, long-term, for ALL people and ALL shots.

....

I mean....and I don't even care....

I prolly have a toward-the-target tilting spine for a lot of short iron shots or chips/pitches or lower trajectory shots.....but not for driver ever....and not for normal/high trajectory mid-long irons....

And I setup with my head prolly in the center of my stance sometimes (or even forward of it)....i.e. on chips/pitches/low shots...

I personally don't ever keep a Stationary Head for anything but non-Pivot Strokes....i.e. chips/putts.

That's me personally. I know you prolly don't care but w/e....

Yes....emoticons....

Anyway....

I don't agree....

You have to look at more than one picture of each player...and look at pictures with different clubs in hand and hitting different shots....

But.....

Disagree with "every great player in history".....

Disagree on Adam Scott and Jack Nicklaus....

Disagree a lot of the time (depending on the shot or sequence you're viewing) on Ben Hogan, Moe Norman, Sam Snead....

Maybe for some shots or in some sequences....

And BTW....sure....Bobby Jones had a "reverse pivot"....lol. If we're gonna go by that definition. (how strongly you react to the term "reverse pivot" is up to you...I do realize it's usually a super negative term so might not be the best fit)

But it worked for him obviously- the guy won the slam.

I don't care man I've got nothing to hide.

Here- works for Freddie and Sergio too.

There you go. (whoopty doo)

...

The bottom line for me is do what works best for yourself. (and I think that leaves more than one option)

I just don't know if I believe it man. (as a rule/for every golfer)

...

BTW I accidentely posted an incomplete response to Mathew a while ago....I just deleted it and the one that's up right now IS complete.

No doubt they are in a different spot based on the position of the hips and the middle board of the door.

Mathew you are HAWT by the way!

Video
 

There was a film done by TGC with Jim McLean and Sam Snead. The video has a lot of footage of Sam Snead's swing. In the film Mr. Snead indicated that he allowed his head to swivel a little, but otherwise he kept the head steady.

I think that from some of the posts from Mr. Skywalker... we can see that in order to keep a centered HEAD in a golf stroke, the various portions of the SPINE(Cervical, Thoracic, Lumbar) are not staying straight like a ROD. Actually... if this is attempted, the HEAD WILL most likely MOVE during the stroke.

Agreed . . . According to 1-L the Stationary Post is at least in my estimation a imaginery line through the head and into the ground. The spine is the center of the shoulder turn and NOT the center of the stroke. The POST doesn't bob and sway meaning the TOP of the post (head) and bottom . . . point on the ground in the middle of the feet.

Thanks for clarifying Yoda. I think what I meant to convey was that Homer's preference (wrt the pivot centre) for accomplishing that geometry would be a centered head that swivels but does not sway nor bob. Now I may not be able to pull that off physically but nonetheless,,, its the preference. Make sense?

Birdie, in the real world, machines take many different forms. The word machine was defined long before dirt bikes were around. In my world we define a rope as a machine.


Never suggested that, just that every theory requires a level of acceptance.


No, I agree with you here and I took some liberty with my interpretation. I was trying to cite Homer's preference for a head centred pivot.

CW

Spot on Bagger. This is what I believe.

Along these lines, I wonder if pros (you guys in here can weigh in please) feel like they are keeping a stationary head and the variance can only be observed in video slo-mo? I don't think I've ever read about pros trying to move or maintain a couple inches movement either way.

1 hacker that can make use of more precision :)

CW

That swivel of the head is a move more people should use IMO. One of the reasons people tend to move their head in the first place is that it gets in the way of the shoulder turn.

Far easier to both keep a steady head, and to get a fuller turn, with the chin swiveled before the takeaway ala Snead and Nicklaus.