Martee...you are comparing (as i said in a previous post) "learning" versus "teaching."

Nowhere did i say or if i did i didn't mean to imply that memorization doesn't have its place in LEARNING because it is a very valid way to LEARN basic concepts so that you can learn how to apply them in whatever subject.

What i'm saying is if Teacher A can memorize more of the constitution than Teacher B are we to say that Teacher A is better because he/she knows more of it without looking at it?

Every good teacher I've ever met is also a good student
 

I don't think the point was that one must memorize that list to teach golf or that simply memorizing the book gives you the ability to teach the material. The point was that memorizing that material will do nothing but make you a better teacher, if for no other reason than you will become a better student.

Have you taught any Learning Disabled students in a classroom or tutoring setting?

My wife is a very good Kindergarten teacher, and a tremendous amount of her elementary education training was memorization work. Sure she learned how to communicate and apply the material and even learned special needs teaching tecniques, but I can assure you she would laugh in my face if I suggested that memorization had absolutely nothing to do with her being a good teacher. She would look pretty foolish if she had to lookup what letter comes after "A" everytime she wanted to teach her students the alphabet.

Explain to me why? Why will memorizing anything make you a better teacher to any student on any subject?

I've had teachers who knew their material so well they didn't even need a book for class and i have had others who needed the book in their hands in class during lecture. Neither imo was better than the other because one had a better memory.

I would be hard pressed to believe that the teachers that required a book in order to efficiently lead a class did not have much of the information memorized.

"Learning is remembering" (Plato). The thing is, it all goes back to remembering. Whether one thinks memorizing the book is useful or being able to recall instantly changes you have made with students and what approaches you took and how they worked. No matter, any discipline requires being able to remember what you need, when you need it. So too, remembering where you can find the information is very useful too, and can often be good enough.

For starters I did not say that a teacher with a better memory will be better than a teacher with lesser memory skills. I simply stated that working your tail off to know your material cold will make you a better teacher than you would have been otherwise.

...on to your questions...

I already made one point...

Do you agree that a teacher must also be a good student? If so, do you agree that memorization is important for a student?

Here's a couple more...

In the two environments where I've taught: at the university level and in a corporate environment. Memorizing the material was a requirement, I could not have been an effective teacher if I didn't memorize a good chunk of the material before I started teaching. I'm not talking about 50 minutes of class lecture, but rather the one-on-one work with each student. Sure I could look-up every question the students had, but there's no way I would have ever established any sort of trust or semblance of competency with a single student. In the corporate environment, it's more obvious – time is money. The faster I can teach a concept or technology to a student or mentor them through a particular problem, the more money our company makes. Again, if I have to look up every question...or even worse, look up what chapter to find the reference to the answer to the person's problem...you get the idea. I'm completely comfortable saying that I could have done a better job teaching my students had I memorized even more material.

I will follow you...
 

Although my understanding of the book is still green, the guide from Yoda will be very helpful to my study. My mentor, oztrainee, always asks me questions. What are 3 imperatives, what chapters related to hands….when he challenge me; I will ask him what I memorized already. What is 6-B-3-0-1? Answer me! :laughing9

Yesterday, I watched a golf coach, sort of AGTF, gave a lesson to someone I knew but not too familiar with, the coach said: Take your club back with your left arm; swing slowly; don’t use your hands; use your shoulder, use your hip, you hit it so long… But, as a student of TGM, I knew that none of the impact was pure. No matter how fat he hit, club head slipped through the mat and no adjustment or comment was given. Instead, the coach said: see, listen to what I taught you, you can hit longer than me. The guy also demonstrated a 7 iron stroke. He said: hit the back of the ball first, return to address…and he did that with off-plane 3-F-7-B weak shot!

As I am nothing, I mean nothing, I just can’t say a word, I closed my eyes, thinking of Yoda giving lesson to Collin Neeman and recent Hull videos, (also kind of information memorized) I knew how to let my friend to understand 3d impact and what sound shall like just with basic motion. But he won’t get it from that coach. When my friend wanted to took a rest, he handed the club to me, I took a deep breath, I chip a few first…ok, 3d impact sound, I acquired more, #2 and #3, still good, I punched a few, still under control, (the distance is longer than his coach already) I checked all alignments and ready for a total motion, wow, yahoo, they stood up and run close to me to see the landing, a good distance as his coach using a fairway wood. The coach said i used my hands pretty well, I smiled at him and replied: I am training my hands still…

My mentor said to me that as an amateur, I can take part in AI program, He said AA. Authorized Amateur? I also want to be authorized too, is that a dream?

Jim I think my last two paragraphs directly address your point. I just kind of took the long way around..

Jim I think golf instructor success or whatever you want to label it is based on more than their knowledge, they need to be able use that knowledge to educate thier students so that they will can excute. I think that is something Kelley said about what the AI's job was. In short knowledge alone does not make the teacher, at least not the good teacher.

Growing Pains
 

For more than forty years, Homer Kelley applied his genius to solving the mysteries of the Golf Stroke. His work yielded 45 mission-critical alignments to be achieved throughout the 12 Sections of each and every Stroke. He codified those alignments as the Mechanical Checklist For All Strokes (12-3-0).

Nine of those alignments are the same: Extensor Action.

So, if you maintain Extensor Action in your Golf Stroke, you will have achieved 20 percent of the Checklist. Similarly, if your goal is to memorize the Checklist -- for immediate reference or for its teaching application with a particular student -- then you have memorized 20 percent of the List.

That leaves only 36 items.

Suppose you took only one item per week. Then, in just 36 weeks, you will have memorized each item in the List. Hopefully, you will have been interested enough to learn more and more about each one during the week devoted specifically to it, especially if you are a teaching professional. Then, you will find yourself looking for ways to apply that new-found knowledge with your students. In this manner, over time, you will come to know each item in the List.

36 weeks.

Nine months.

A human being is conceived and born in nine months.

And, for those willing to pay the price, so can be born a true Authority on Golf Stroke Mechanics.

:)

He that hath ears...
 

He that hath ears to hear, let him hear...

See things as they are, not as YOU are...

The situations that we face and have faced in life affects our objectivity and adds a value bias in our estimation of things.

Difficult it may be to be objective, but awareness of this value bias will go a long way to help achieve a neutrality of perspective.

See things as THEY are, not as you are...

Dude can you walk across rice paper without leaving a foot print?

That was deeeeeeep.

Georgia Dreamin'
 

Our dreams may meet in the middle, KOC.

Stay tuned!

8)

Gamblin' Man
 

I know what you are saying, Martee, and I don't disagree. But I can't resist this:

"The race goes not always to the swift.

Nor the battle to the strong.

But...

That's the way to bet!"

-- Jimmy Breslin

:laughing9

The Essence...
 

The Essence of this thread thus far (although that may not be the original intent of it):

- How can you teach unless you have learnt?
- How can you have learnt if you don't understand and cannot apply?
- How can you apply unless you have 'it'?
- How can you have 'it' unless you have consciously or subconsciously memorized the material under discussion?

Instead of thinking teaching golf, lets think teaching mathematics. You will start seeing things in a whole new light.

Teaching golf is no different from any other teaching profession. You need expertise and to get expertise, you gotta put the time in.

organize the brain as a good foundation to teach from
 

The original question was in regard to GSEB training in The Golfing Machine. What is so difficult to understand that, as an instructor, having the book neatly organized in your head can only be a benefit- all things considered. How can less be better unless you aren’t teaching the GM and have twisted away to another set of principals.
What you do after your TGM education and certification- is individual. But why shoot for being less?

Bravo...
 

Ok...that to me is the crux of the whole matter!!!

Bravissimo Mike...

How much is 3,654 times 456 ?
I don't have to memorize the answer to be a great mathmatician.
I do know how to solve that problem.
This was an example that Homer gave.
Remember that musical group that learned that top hit by rote.
They did't speak any English.

The Value
 

Denny,

How much do you think it would help you if you could see immediately the errors that students are making in their Downstroke - the 8th section of the swing.

Of which their mechanical checklist would be...

Extensor Action
Aiming Point - Lag
Left Wrist Position
Delivery Line
Right Elbow Position
Rhythm

And how would you know unless you have memorized it?

Memorizing the principles of TGM is akin to memorizing basic mathematical operations.

Teaching these TGM principles would be akin to applying your mathematical operations in finding out what the value of 3,654 times 456 is - which incidentally is 1,666,224...:happy3:

Believe me buddy, there is a HUGE difference when you have the PRECISION to pinpoint a problem and when you "sort of know it".

When you know that you know and when your student knows that you know - things happen.

I should know...

I experienced it myself.

With all due respect comdpa, keep in mind that Denny has been at the game a long time and is an accomplished and respected instructor himself. When I have talked golf swing with him he most certainly knows very specifically what he is talking about and is extremely dedicated to learning the book backwards and forwards.

Matt

With all due respect Matt...

Denny and I go back slightly more than a year...

He is a fantastic coach...and he certainly knows his stuff - I know, because I have seen the man in person no less and his hands have guided mine.

Its most unfortunate that my post was taken in a way that was not obviously its intent.

I wasn't trying to disprove Denny's ability.

I was just trying to make the point that memorizing things that relate to our profession can elevate you to the 'next level'.

Since my return to Singapore from Arizona, Denny and I frequently communicate over the telephone.

I always tell Denny that he was the one who sparked this TGM fire in me through his generous sharing - he will humbly tell you: "Oh thats nothing..." . What I know today is a debt to the giants that have stood before me.

Denny told me this which left an indelible impression: "Never stop researching, there are always new ways we can learn to communicate TGM concepts to students". I have held firmly to his advice.

In fact, there has been more than one occasion in which Denny and I have spoken about memorizing things - whether I was a straight A's student etc etc...Denny has got this stuff memorized in case you were wondering - don't be misled!

A good memory stems from awareness and organization first and foremost.

I was always a bad student with a bad memory until I picked up Tony Buzan's "How to use your Head". My life changed both socially and academically.

How dramatic was the change?

From a near junior and high school dropout to being on the honor roll in college for 3 consecutive years - and a scholarship offer to do my MBA.

Up Close And Personal
 

This is one of the best things I have read in a long time...

:salut:

There was no sarcasm whatsoever to my post and I have now deleted it. I have done nothing but gain from your posts comdpa. My posts on this thread have been in favor of memorizing concepts from the book and that this practice would only aid one's teaching ability.

Clearing the air...
 

Matthew,

I have had the privilege of communicating with you via email.
I know where you are coming from and am aware that there was no sarcasm on your part.

However the unfortunate thing about forums is that nuances and facial expressions don't carry over very well, therefore I thought it very necessary to elaborate. :happy3:

I think in tgm terms when watching my students.

I would love to know it all.

Mac calls the way you look at a student is like a bar code .


O K I am going to learn more than John 3:16.:salut:

Quit Messing Around...
 

C'mon...quit messing around...you DO know more than John 3:16...:)

Thanks Buddy. Besides just knowing the chapters helps finding things with the book open- LOL

Please sir, can I have some more?
 

Comdpa,

Tony Buzan? Could you tell me some more about the book?

Thanks,
Drew

The Homer Kelley of the brain...
 

Sure thing Drew...

In the book, Mr. Buzan talks about how the brain actually functions in terms of learning, memory retention, how to take notes for maximum retention, speed reading etc.

Do not get any other titles from him unless you have read my recommendation. I feel that this title very nicely sums up all his other works. Should you feel like you want more specifics, then you can consider the other titles.

You can think of him as the Homer Kelley of the brain - a lot of 'uncommon' stuff, but definitely worth a read.
This is a link for more information on Mr. Buzan.
http://www.buzanworld.com/

This is a link for more information on things related to the brain and memorization.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/memory/

Knock yourself out...:)

Recall Notice
 

Thanks Comdpa, I look forward to getting the book. I hope I can remember the title :) .

I Knew it!!!!!!! Just got back from a no access to internet place and read all the posts on this forum. I met the Slinger in Singapore recently for a couple of days and I knew there was someting in this man that I would only discover in time. And guys those moments are unfolding now.

Justin, I had the greatest time discussing TGM with you. There"ll be lots more of that I assure you.

Vikram

Equals...
 

Viki,

The pleasure of sharing was as much mine as it was yours...:happy3: