F=MA

MOMENTUM: mass in motion ( according to the referenced Glenbrook link)

Still... would not a 100lb. golfing machine hit the ball further than a 1lb. golfing machine, with all other factors being equal?

Thanks Mike.....

Something worth quoting from one of the links:

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Maximum acceleration and efficiency of motion. All available forces should be applied sequentially with proper timing, and as directly in the intended line of motion as possible. Body motions extraneous to the desired motion should be minimal.

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Hands Control -- The Way Of Life
 

Mike,

It is a curious irony that the Swinger's Centrifugal Force is largely the result of the Momentum Transfer of the Turning Body (the Pivot) into the Primary Lever Assembly (the Left Arm and Club). And yet, we who teach The Golfing Machine maintain that the Pivot (Body) is best controlled by the Hands and not the other way around.

I know you've done a lot of work in this area that our members would find fascinating. It would make a great new thread in The Lab, and I, for one, would read every word! Could you kick this subject off for us?

Meanwhile, let's all carry on here. This thread has a 'momentum' all its own!

Re: Hands Control -- The Way Of Life
 

I would be very, very interested in reading about this as well.

Re: Hands Control -- The Way Of Life
 

I also would like to read more about this subject.

I think many people probably confuse the Hands Controlled Pivot, with actually hitting the ball with the hands. Many probably think of this as kind of a Hand Throw. That's not it, although some may feel that kind of thing.

if you're asking whether a 100 lb clubhead would hit the ball further than a 1 lb clubhead if they have the same acceleration at impact then i would say yes...if you mean that a 100 lb machine and a 1lb machine both swing the same clubhead, in the same way, to the same acceleration at impact, then i would say no...

-hcw

Re: Transfer of Momentum
 

hmmm, i need to ponder this, but i'm not sure that is really what we're doing...i'm not sure it's that complex...i think we're applying forces to the clubhandle using different muscles in sequence to accelerate it and therefore the clubhead that's attached to it...hopefully this is in a direction that when the clubhead impacts the ball it will make the ball go to the target...

-hcw

Transferring Momentum
 

HCW,
Just for clarification- Transferring Momentum is something that happens in many sports movements including golf- but I'm not saying that you consciously try to do it everytime you make a swing. I would agree that if that was your procedure then it would be much too complicated. There certainly are criteria for improving the transfer of momentum if you are not sufficiently accomplishing it, but differentiating between what is happening in the movement and what you are trying to do in the movement- i.e. one's procedure, is very important in understanding and mastering the golf movement or other movements.

Just wanted to clarify between what's happening in the movement and what your trying to do- and not have someone think I was inferring that you "have to make the transfer of momentum happen" "or that it is something your trying to time with each joint motion"- ultimately your clubhead lag "controls" that.

Mike O

machine mass
 

if the 6 oz machine can swing the same club, with the same acceleration, with the same impact parameters (ie hits the exact same spot on the ball with exact same spot on the clubhead) as the 100 lb machine, then i think the ball will go the same distance, all other factors (eg wind, ball elasticity) being equal

Re: machine mass
 

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hcw,

That would be an interesting experiment!

The point I was really making is... that I'm pretty sure there are players with slower clubhead speeds, that outdrive those with faster speeds, because they more efficiently transfer momentum(mass in motion) into the ball. The ball is like a little computer, and picks up all this information during the IMPACT INTERVAL. THIS OF COURSE, WITH HUMANS, WOULD BE HARD TO PROVE, BECAUSE OF ALL THE OTHER FACTORS INVOLVED.

? So that I may grasp the contents of this thread......
 

We have two clubs, both have the same mass, both have a speed of 100 mph at impact, both are acceleating at the same rate, both are on the correct plane and correct path, both clubs are square at ball seperation, launch angle is perfect for max. distance (may have left something out but you get the idea).

But

One club has no golfer attached!

Difference?

Re: machine mass
 

lagster,
the point i'm really trying to make is that if you found these golfers i think you would find that that the ones with slower clubhead speeds still had better accleration at impact...that's what happens when they "more efficiently transfer momentum"...example: if i get the clubhead 0->120 mph from TOS->impact in 2 seconds, i have 60 mph/s of acceleration...if i get the clubhead 0->100 mph from TOS->impact in 1.5 seconds, i have 66.7 mph/s of acceleration and i think that this ball will go farther (assuming the contact parameters and flight conditions being equal)...BUT, i have absolutely no data to back this up...does anybody know of such studies/measurements?

-hcw

Re: ? So that I may grasp the contents of this thread......
 

Absolutely.

That difference is 'support', which is indeed additional mass of the player. The difference is less slowdown due to impact and therefore faster separation speed.

Re: machine mass
 

Re: ? So that I may grasp the contents of this thread......
 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

I think EdZ is correct on this one. I think Pivot Lag is also related to this momentum(mass in motion) transfer. Pivot Lag..."operates like a "gear train" to extend the Swing Radius of the Primary Lever to any point from the Shoulder turn on down to the Feet(Zone #1)."

Now... maybe Mr. Yoda can go on with his Rocky Thompson story... relating to ARC size.

PHYSICS---LONG DRIVERS
 

Wedgy Winchester won a national Long Drive championship with a very, very long driver. Rocky Thompson was one of the longest drivers on the Senior Tour with his Killer Bee.

These clubs obviously work. When(in inches and weight) do they become TOO LONG?

Why don't more players use them? I once played with Peter Croker while he was using a very long driver. He is a very small guy... but with this, he was long and straight!

Maintaining the acceleration rate at impact, through impact is the question, will it without mass behind it?

Given the scenario above, all things being equal minus the mass behind the generation of the acceleration, you will find no difference.

The reason is simple, you can not assume that the one without mass will slow down, there was no reason at the start for it to slow down, cause somehow it is accelerating the same as the one with mass.

Applying Newton's laws would as I understand it, have the "For an unbalanced force acting on a body, the acceleration produced is proportional to the force impressed; the constant of proportionality is the inertial mass of the body. " Because of impact both clubhead are affected in the same manner. Since Mass exist behind one which must be inpart responsible for the acceleration and the second has no mass behind it but yet an equal amount of acceleration it is therefore consistent to state they would both be effected the same.

Granted it seems that logically the impact would cause the one with no mass to slow down or be effected whereas the one with mass could offer resistance to this reduce, minimize and maybe overcome this effect, BUT since the one without the mass behind it was able to achieve the same acceleration rate, there is no logical explanation how or why it would not continue to act the same. Of course I am trying to figure out how something like this could achieve this acceleration rate.

Even the 1 lb vs the 100 lb comes up with the same answer. The golf ball only knows what the clubhead has told it or done to it. It has no idea why the clubhead has the properties it exhibits.

The difference between golfers and this scenario is the Human factor and the Techniques applied.

The key could be said, 'Sustain the Line of Compression'.......

I knew that! Only kidding but the question arose in my head after thinking about V.J. , Freddy C., others and their apparent let go somewhere near impact/seperation. Another clue, especially with a teed ball (no or little divot), was that I always knew the feel of a good strike of the ball always felt as if I had hit the ball (impact and seperation) long after the club made contact. But, before TGM, never knew why! Wonder what % of those attempting to play have ever felt this? stloc.

Back to Mass
 

What about TRANSFER OF MOMENTUM(mass in motion)? It takes longer for a freight train to slow down than it does an ant. If the momentum of the train could be transferred into the ball....well.

Also... what about the 3rd law of motion(action/reaction)?

I feel the club, especially with the driver (or low-loft shots), got pushed back or paused a bit by the impact when "hitting" a "solid" shot, which I believe the "line of compression" must have been "sustained" pretty well.

Re: Back to Mass
 

Transfer of Momentum occurs in both cases.

What is really being considered is that at impact, the resistance the clubhead encounters will reduce the acceleration. In the first case, no golfer - just a club, it is assuming that this resistance will be meet with effort to overcome, whereas with the golfer and mass of golfer somehow it will either be overcome or reduced.

In this example we have assumed that a golf club with a golfer can achieve the same acceleration as one with a golfer. That being the case we must then say the self powered golf club can and will in fact work as the one with the golfer and mass.

Newton's 3rd law - "In a system where no external forces are present, every action force is always opposed by an equal and opposite reaction force." or "When one body interacts with a second body, the force of the firs body on the second is equal is magnitude but opposite in direction to the force of the second body on the first. F2 on 1 = -F1 on 2" appllies.

As I stated the clubhead and ball no not of the golfer (golfer could be 1 foot tall, 300 lbs or 8 foot tall and 100 lbs), but what properties of the clubhead exist and the golf ball.

This could, maybe not the best example, equated to when you enter a curve and then accelerate out of the curve to hold the curve path. Don't want to discuss centripetal or centrifugal forces here. What I am reading and hearing, is that the golf club with the golfer will in fact apply additional force (be it active or inactive) to attempt to overcome any resistance of impact. I submit that the self powered golf club will do the same since it was capable of achieving the same acceleration, etc. that the golfer powered golf club.

This is all theorical (don't know of a self power golf club except that one that used a gun shell to move pin into the ball), for golfers of different masses and same techniques we find that we have the same situation and that is both using the same technique, should be able to compensate equally.

Another side note, since the golf stroke (proper technique) will not achieve it's maximum's till 'inline' relationships are meant, both golfers of varying sizes still should have sufficent force to be applied before reaching thier maximum.

Hope that was clear.

Re: Back to Mass
 

.................................................. .................................................. ......

Very interesting Mr. Martee!!

It sounds like what you believe, as it would apply to human golfers... is that the big guys (Big Cat type guys) that hit the ball further than the little guys with similar type swings... are doing so primarily because they can accelerate the club faster, and that their MASS or size has nothing to do with it. The tall guy's longer levers, of course, is a different thing(leverage and arc). Does everyone agree... EdZ... what do you think on this?

Your mentioning of centrifugal, centripetal, and curvilinear are also good ideas for DISCUSSION in the LAB!!

What about the LONG CLUBS?

Long Clubs?

Here is where IMO you can see a difference in this discussion. The self powered club can be as long as you want BUT when a golfer is attached to the club, the human factor comes into play. It will vary between golfers, not necessarily height or size, but there is a limit that each golfer can handle efficently and effectively.

But the theory is the longer the club, the more speed than can be obtained cause of the length the clubhead travels in orbit.

Kind of like swinging a 5 iron and a driver the same, the clubhead speed will be greater for the longer club. This also holds true for accelleration.

Certainly a golfer's size and physical construction can make a difference, but as we see every day golfers come in all sizes and shapes and they all can strike the ball an equally good distance and we see wee-ones out hitting the big-ones at times. Body size alone does not ensure anything, it is how it is used, the technique applied, etc. Being in good shape is a good start, having flexibility certainly helps some techniques more than others, but having a coordinated body and movements is key over size.

No doubt that the longer lever is generally a bigger advantage than more mass, however I would indeed be curious to see data on same speed, center contact by two 'machines' with different mass.

If you were somehow to assume that resistence to deceleration at impact were always the same given a club of the same mass, then it would be the case that they would produce similar shots.

However if you took a club and tied it to a string and were somehow able to swing it at the same speed as a club connected to a steel rod, the steel rod would provide more resistence to deceleration. I suppose the actual speed here would also be a big factor, a slower moving club not resisting decel as much as a faster moving one. At a slow speed it could literally 'bounce' off the ball.

Again, it would be nice to see some data from Ping or similar on just how much difference mass can make in real world golf swings.

I wonder if it boils down to 'arm weight', as a 'heavier lever'.

Ed, I don't believe you will find any Imperical Data regarding a golfer''s mass. The mass involved with clubhead speed and acceleration relates to the clubhead.

The thought of the arm weight as a 'heavier lever' would only impact the ability to move the club. Would the arms experience overrun? Would the heavier arms continue at a faster rate than the smaller arms after the resistance has been meet? Since both arms would be moving at the same rate, meeting resistance the lighter arm would have to apply more force than the heavier to attempt to maintain the previous rate. Here the lighter arm could exceed its capability before the heavier arm. Also it took more effort to get the heavier arm moving equal to the lighter arm.

It is a thought. I could equate this to what happens to electical motors but I would have to substitute mass for horsepower. When both motors running at the same speed come across resistance, they will attempt to maintain speed by drawing more current. Obviously the motor with the lower horsepower will when reaching its peak, slow down while the other will continue till it reaches its peak. The mass had negligible if any effect.

Plus we need to keep in mind that the golf ball weight is about 1/8 to 1/10 that of the clubhead and the clubhead is moving while the ball is static.

Right Forearm? It is something to think about, but with role of the rt arm between swinger and hitters, one has to wonder if it just doesn't come down to technique and the individual golfers attributes including being able to apply them efficently.

Sorry, I have probably overstayed my time on this topic...

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One theory related to this is that if the golfer is swinging utilizing his CORE... he will transfer the entire MASS of his rotating body into the ball. If he comes out of his core or was never in it, he is only using the weight of his arms. The TGM equivalent to this is probably PIVOT LAG which acts like a "gear train".6-C-O

OK...what about this?
 

If a 2x4 was moving at 10 mph and hit me, I would not fall over. However, if a car hit me traveling 10 mph, I would most certainly fall over.

It seems that the mass behind the item striking me has something to do with the way my body will react when struck.

I've heard Yoda talk about "effective mass" being more important than clubhead speed. But I must confess, it's not a concept I claim to understand.

Trigolt - sounds to me like you do understand it!

Think of it this way -

In your example, that 10mph 2x4 is like an 'average' golfer. There is speed, but generally not much mass. Not much 'support' behind impact.

That 10mph car is a tour player - same speed, more mass. Lots of 'support' behind impact.

So the question is, how do you get MASS in your swing.

And the answer, to put it simply - is maximum lag PRESSURE

Which in a 'feel' sense is a HEAVY club. Feeling PP#3.

Brian's 'shopping cart' image.

How many times have you watched a tour player take an easy swing, yet the ball rockets off the face? The reason, they have the proper sequence that maintains lag pressure and thus delivers MASS to impact.

Extensor action is a great shortcut. As are 'slow motion' drills - hitting your 160 club only 100 yards with a full, smooth, flowing motion.

Sustain the line of compression

We are getting statements here that may apply to Hitting but not Swinging. For Swinging, it is only necessary to keep the butt of the club ahead of the clubhead through the Impact Interval and to keep it from backing up, which does not require a lot of mass. Swinging produces a "whallop", which comes solely from CF. Mass can contribute only to the extent that it can provide left arm speed from rotation. This idea of getting more mass into the stroke is a Hitting notion.

Re: OK...what about this?
 

That dog doesn't hunt.

1. Your mass compared to the 2x4 is not the same as the clubhead to the ball.

2. Your mass compared to the car is probably closer the clubhead/golf ball relationship, maybe a bit higher.

3. Both the 2x4 and Car would equate to being the clubhead. In effect we have two different clubs in this example.

I guess I am missing your points. The golf club, the handle/grip is being moved, it doesn't matter what is moving it if in fact it can move the same as another. It generated velocity, acceleration, it has equat mass (clubhead) so with all this being equal, both will act the same when striking the golf ball.

It is only when the resistance exceeds the applied force generation of one and not the other, will it act differently.

If we accept the fact that every component lags the previous component, the feed back time to effect anything other than the hands is beyond the impact/separation time which once the ball is gone, loss of acceleration at that point will not effect the shot.

We are talking about the effect of hitting the golf ball, not how one might precieve the follow through or lack of?

I am beginning to think I have misunderstood this exercise. Equal power applied is equal power applied. Meeting resistance is equal for both.

edZ and TriG:another pov
 

this is really just for anybody else out there for whom the idea of "transfer of mass doesn't work (i just can't buy into the idea more mass getting to any given clubhead)...i think getting "more effective mass" by "maintaining max lag pressure" is the way to have max clubhead acceleration at impact...and since i think how far the ball goes is governed by F=ma, then acceleration works just as well as mass...that and hitting the right part of ball with the sweetspot (which also ups your "effective mass" by getting the center of mass and thus "all" the mass of the clubhead on the ball, thus more force) in the right direction (ie sustain the line of compression) is in my mind what allows a pro with a smaller mass than i have to hit balls a lot further...again, just an alternative way of thinking about it, use whatever works...

-hcw

I supposed so MJ, although personally the duality of swing/hit is another topic. I don't really consider them 'either/or', but a spectrum. In my view, the 'ideal' swing would start out as a 'swing' and end up as a 'hit'.

Even swingers must have both hands on the club for the most effective impact.

"In my view, the 'ideal' swing would start out as a 'swing' and end up as a 'hit'."

I don't go there anymore.

No worries, that ideal is like tossing a coin and having it land on its side..... no need to go there :wink:

It's my view, and I may be incorrect, that "hit vs. swing" doesn't start until release point. Both hits and swings are "pulled" until you get to your release point. Only from there will you continue to pull (drag) or hit (drive). I think this is why they both look similar...because they ARE similar until release.

The small pulley, snap release Swing has a deeper release point than most, if not all, Hitting procedures.

mgjordan,

In addition to what occurs from release to impact, the swinger's motion is an instantaneous acceleration from the Top, where as the hitter's motion begins as a deliberate resistance of the backstroke. There is a post by Yoda using the term "Cranking the Gysoscope", do a search.

Also check 10-19-A and 10-19-C for pace of the start down.

ldeit

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Hitting and Swinging are different... mostly in the way the Right Shoulder and Right Arm are used. Gyroscope/Passive Right Arm--Swinging Launching Pad/Active Right Arm-- Hitting
6-H-O is a good example of the differences.

Re: OK...what about this?
 

Oh...my dog most definitely hunts! :D

Now about my post. The point I was making is simply twofold:

1. If two items with different mass strike an object at the same speed, the item with more mass does the most damage.

2. This was more of a question on my part - how do you create more "effective mass" with a golf club so that you get to do more damage?

Now....this leads me to poke on point #2 a little more:

How does "lag pressure" create more effective mass? And is "lag pressure" different from "clubhead lag"?

"Clubhead lag" to me is simply maitaining the lag as long as possible in the golf swing. If my hands are approaching the ball and the clubhead is still above my waist, I've got a tremendous amount of "clubhead lag" which means the clubhead must travel MUCH faster to square up with the ball at impact. As opposed to a situation where my hands are approaching the ball and the clubhead is below my waist - in this case, the clubhead does not need to travel AS FAST to square up with the ball as my first example.

So I've created more clubhead speed by maintaining more cluhead lag.

This obviously didn't create any more mass in my clubhead. Perhaps the answer is - lag pressure is simply the feeling of creating more cluhead lag. And it's really the resulting increase in clubhead speed that hits the ball further. (And you can do this without swinging harder or faster.)

Perhaps this is just a semantics issue, but nothing I described above really creates more "effective mass". I've just described how to effectively create more clubhead speed by maintaining more clubhead lag.