More To Life Than Life
 

I thought the name was enough.

Apparently not.

Ravielli drawings are photographs with an attitude.

"And I did it...maiiiii.....waaaaayyyyy"

This is why they call him Yoda.

I want more on this debate!



What if you believe 100% in the concepts of The Golfing Machine, but realise that there are some golfers out there who can play better without adhering to a Stationary Head, and by getting them to try to maintain a Stationary Head, they will not play to their full potential? Would you still get them to maintain a Stationary Head, or attempt some other variation, e.g. the 'top of the spine' Pivot Center.

Tong,

Those guys who "don't do the essentials" or don't do what is recommended for that matter simply have extreme athletic ability that eludes the general human population.

Case in point, I took my student out on course one fine day. On a par 5, I hit it 311 yards with a flat left wrist. He kills it 359 (this is no typo) yards with a bending left wrist, throwaway and a nice little bobbing action.

I have worked with him on a couple of things, and more often than not, he will hit VERY POORLY with what I have instructed.
I expect this to happen all the time.

One of the reasons is because the old habits are still dominant and trying to override the new ones that the player is trying to ingrain.

Sure, he will make me look good if he nails it the first time around (which happens) but then it makes me suspect if he did not use his old procedure instead.

Usually the "strike rate" is 3/10, then 4/10 until he reaches unconscious proficiency.

Can he get better? Of course. But do not expect the permanent transition in your students to be immediate. Getting from "here" to "there" is going to take some time.

"All things are difficult before they are easy."
Thomas Fuller, Physician

It is this transitory period that you have to rough it out mentally. The player will be thinking: "I was playing well with the old procedure...this new one sucks."

But when the old finally succumbs to the new habit, the player and coach will in joyous unison say: "WE did it." It is the instructor that informs and explains, the student absorbs and applies.

A transition will not take you 2 years...but it also will not take you 2 minutes. It is simply a matter of overlaying the old habit with a new one.

Want more examples? Plenty of Tour Pros do not have an onplane right forearm, stationary head, flying wedges etc...BUT they still manage to compensate and get back to impact correctly which is all that matters.

90% of the golfing population at large unfortunately do not have this ability to compensate.

Mr Kelly did 40 years of research which was validated by a Professor in quantum physics in Alabama.

If the man says any shift in planes is dangerous, it probably is. If the man says that a stationary head is ESSENTIAL, it probably is.

Don't reinvent the wheel :)

Leo,

I don't think you are going to get a legit discussion on this.

Centered Arc!

NO kidding. Who in the heck is saying the POST should move from release point THROUGH the follow-through?

Not me.

You see "Golfing Machine" fans, Leo "Tongzilla" was an attendee at the Canton School.

He is a young man.

He is tall and lean.

He is smart.

and........he has physical ability.

When he would dutifully attempt the "Pivot Tripod Center" with his head precisely between his feet, he would hit a weak slice with about a 200-210 carry......

....tops!

and In my opinion—doing this "Pivot Tripod Center" concept—Leo had a top-of-the-backstroke position that, was for all practical purposes, a reverse pivot.

He just didn't look 'golf like' at the top of the swing....to me....after 23 years of teaching everyone from hacker to Ryder Cupper.

So, when Leo worked with me, I put him in the top of the backswing position that looked like a GOLFER...to me...after giving 23 thousand golf lessons.

The students who were nearby confirmed—Leo looked more like a golfer.

Why?

Because the 5 guys would were watching had looked at golf on TV for 23 thousand hours collectively.....

and Leo DID look more like a golfer.

But, I digress...

Position Golf! The faithful cries!

Nope.

You see, I couldn't give a rat's rear end WHAT Leo LOOKED like, I knew that the REAL problem was Leo had to work WAY TO HARD to get his right shoulder on plane on the downstroke from the "Pivot Tripod Center" concept backswing.

From the Manzella "maiiiii.....waaaaayyyyy" backswing, Leo hit a STRONG 240-250 carry draw.

Great right?

Nope.

Leo was sad,

Leo—a great student and student of G.O.L.F.—didn't want to hit these TOUR-like shots with a backswing that violated any 'rules of G.O.L.F.'

I brought Ben Doyle over to look at Leo's backswing, Ben Loved the Manzella-"maiiiii.....waaaaayyyyy" backswing. He then posed Leo in a very similar—if not exact—top of the backstroke position.

Yet, Leo was sad.

So, Leo left the school being able to hit it pure as snow with the Manzella-"maiiiii.....waaaaayyyyy" backswing or 30 yards shorter and 20 yards to the right with a "Pivot Tripod Center" concept backswing.

He has then talked to some other noted teachers, like Bobby Schaffer, who confirmed what I am saying, that the "Pivot Tripod Center" concept backswing, is just that—a concept. One way to skin a cat. But NOT the only way.

Leo still would like some nice debate on what works better in the real world, but
all he gets is Frank Sinatra songs.

So, sports fans, we sit a place called the crossroads, looking dead in the eye of another concept—branding.

Lynn is positioning himself as the ultimate staright out of Homer Kelley's mouth teacher on planet earth, ready to revolutionize golf with the "Pivot Tripod Center" concept backswing and the "Right Forearm Takeaway."He has done a great job with this positioning, and a GREAT job getting Homer's little-known concepts some well-deserved light. He is a super motivator, a charming large group indoor presenter, and like Ben Doyle says "He really knows the book."

Brian Manzella—that would be me—just wants to be the best teacher on the planet, and take over (revolutionize) golf by helping the most players play better and the most teachers teach better, by using science, like—but not exclusively—The Golfing Machine, to assist the teacher in finding a pattern that the student can produce the lowest scores with. Letting "The Imperatives Dictate the components." My brand is simply this—I can get you to do it and I can get you to understand it, but the IT will be, whatever works AS LONG AS IT PRODUCES A STRAIGHT PLANE LINE, CLUBHEAD LAG and CONTROLS THE CLUBFACE WITH HINGE ACTION.

In my opinion—yes "maiiiii.....waaaaayyyyy" opinion—the golf world is better for having us both.

And Leo need to turn around the base of his neck.;)

I am a little confused about the head movement/setup discussion, which may be a little different than the food fight here but thought I would post anyway. What about the head movement of the following and what is wrong with it?
-Nicklaus and Faldo with the little head twist before takeaway
-Duval, Annika, Durant with the head turn to get thru the ball
-Curtis Strange backswing head movement
-Tiger's head drop.

All these players have a different head movement but all have won multiple times with many Majors.

Brian, you are a real interesting guy. Any chance of you coming over to Singapore. Would love to buy you a beer! :)

I love to 'come over."

If you want to "take over" the golf wrold, you have to be willing to travel to the golf WORLD.

But, I drink Diet Coke.;)

Okay, maybe I am missing something here so if a few will humor me and respond to the questions, maybe I will understand.. Please bear with my strange logical path here:

1. The head, movement on its own can be
a. Up and Down
b. Around (rotate)
c. Side to side (ear to shoulder)
d. Combination of the above

Isn't all this independent head moving accomplished with the base, the neck for a lack of proper technical terms, as the point of movement?

Isn't this the type of independent movement that Homer said was not to happen regarding the Stationary Head?

2. This 'tripod' is it suppose to be an 'Isosceles Triangle (2 sides of equal length)'? Doesn't a tripod indicate 3 legs?

Now for my ignorance...

3. Where does TGM state the head is to be in the center of the stance?

I mean 1-L-1, 1-L-2 and 2-H, don't state that as I read them.

4. If the pivot center of the shoulders are permitted to move (other than rotate), side to side, up or down, doesn't this indicate either
a. Set up position is not correct if this movement accomplishes correct alignment at impact?
b. If the movement moves off and the back on prior to impact, isn't this a case several compensating moves that serve no purpose if they weren't done? (This assumes that moves counter each other to null out the result).
c. Wouldn't the Low Point be moved by moving the pivot center? (Would this account for a variation where the ball placement would either be more forward or backward depending upon the movement from what might consider optimal as defined by the primary lever?)
d. Can 'POWER' not alignment be accomplished more effectively with a moving pivot center over a static center? If so does this require a certain degree of hand/eye coordination, timing, etc.?

5. Movement of the pivot center, would this not encourage swaying and bobbing in the less physical golfers?

6. Do we get confused when monitoring he head by the face on view, when in-fact rotation is acceptable and most heads have more depth than width coupled with the angle lending itself to appear to move up and down and sideways when it is really rotation? Obviously some head movements are truly head movements when we see them the static reference points in the background clearly show this, while others the appearance may be deceiving?

I have always subscribed to a stationary head, rotate okay, but moving off the ball or toward the ball seem to me making the golf stroke more difficult and more dependent upon timing and other physical and mental attributes. In short it complicates IMO. That is not to say you can't move it, and that you won't get better resutls but the reason for the better results may be that you are now compensating for mixed component variations or fault execution.

So without attack, etc. Can I get some answers so I can better understand the discussion and learn....

I think a topic on the 'Tripod' and component variations how it impacts alignments and Impact Fix would be interesting in a different thread.

What about Sandy Lyle??? The guy wins a couple of majors with all kinds of head movement, then tries to "fix his problem" and is never heard from again. Wouldn't you think that someone who rose to the level of Major Champion with so called bad mechanics would improve when he did it right?

I changed my mind. This is one of the Best Threads of all time!!!!.:D

Try this tool
 

Just take a set square , put it close to your screen and put it in line with Mr Hogan's right foot . You can check that everything is OK with the backgrounds (can you see the right foot in line with this dark spot in the trees? and the white spot in the middle of the right calf?) .
I didn't check the other sequences. It's up to you :)
Thank you Brian to remind us that sometimes facts (and pictures) must be compared to concepts.

phimaynard - look at post #32 in this thread, I placed lines on the photos. That should be sufficent to show that they are not accurately representing what is being claimed for those photos.

New hogan sequence
 

OKPlace your Own lines on this sequence , well known on this site (the gallery )


I personally mesure 1,5 mm (sorry Im French) of backward moving from the center of the head to the vertical of the ball, in the backswing, and 1,5 mm frontward (from the adress position) in the downswing and followthrough. Due to the scale of the image the total moving of the head is approximatively 9 cm. Everybody can appreciate in the same time the movement of the hips. In such conditions a steady head seems to be a restrictive object.

Lynn,

One of the possible effects of a centered head is a reverse pivot(in real world teaching as Brian might say!).

What do you say to the reverse pivot guy when you give him a lesson?

What does Vicki have to say from a physical/biomechanics standpoint?

I say this due to seminars I did with Greg Rose(head of the Titleist Performance Institute) who said that 80% of back injuries in golf are related to a reverse pivot or reverse spine angle.

I know you came back from back injuries so I AM very interested in the personal changes you made to redress those issues, but I'm also very interested about the possible ramifications for your students, good and bad?

Very interesting discussion,
Homerson

Where Are All of the MORAD Guys?
 

Just an interested bystander here, but what say you?

EC

Thanks Mr. Maynard.

We talked to a Hogan expert today, Brent White, the Head Professional at Hogan's club, Shady Oaks, who both doubted the Hogan letter and confirmed the head movement.

So what?

We know that the Hall-of-Fame has head movers and non-movers in it.

Lynn feels like any—and I mean any—deviation from what Homer told him was ideal, is....not in his best interest.

I agree. Lynn NEEDS to teach this way and ONLY this way. This makes Lynn, Lynn.

And, thankfully, there is a Lynn.:smile:

I will continue to teach both "through the head" and "base of the neck" centers.

Cool?

Next topic.

We're here...lurking....observing..learning...

The "eyes" are what stay centered in the tripod ...

You see a camera sets atop of a tripod in the center...right...well you can rotate the camera clockwise and it would appear to move to the right while staying perfectly centered..In the case of "The human camera"... the lens of the camera can move along the "horizontal axis of the eyes" and while maintaining a centered gaze keeping the object in the middle of the fovial...The pictures Mr.Manzella drew with Mac O'Grady show this camera rotating clockwise which gives the appearance of the head moving to the right ..but just 20 degrees of neck rotation ...meanwhile the eyes are moving along the horizontal axis in the opposite direction...


Now I'm not gettin into this pissin match....Whether it's the

1.) Eyes
2.) Head
3.) Top of the Spine between the Shoulders

A true MORAD guy knows that all the above adjustable pending on the particular ball flight...


This is a TGM...Forum...I thought it was funny in the Glossary when it used to say..."Chosing the Head" instead of the corrected version of "Choosing the Head"...

Does this imply a "Choice"??????????????????

Uh oh.....Choice means variation to me......

But I know where Master Yoda stands ...and I support his Posture on this....

As well as Mr. Manzella...great points and great pics

I guess I sleep in more than one camp.....


I did not expect 3 pictures of Snead to escalate into a forest fire...I'll contribute some kerosene to help put the fire out!!!

AS

Koooollll...;)

tough time?
 

The idea wasn't the problem. Spending 10 years suffering to break 80 by moving my ^%#^#@ head and double shifting was the problem. The only reason I could break 80 then was because I could and can make everything when a putter's in my hands. I thought I was getting good TGM instruction before I met Lynn, but later found I was getting someone's take on TGM. It was a take that didn't even include a hitting procedure. This person (not Brian Manzella, so no false rumors lower this thread) said, "through our research, (in other words, not Homer's) we've found that your right eye needs to be over your right foot at the top of your swing. Additionally, shifting isn't a problem as long as you stay in between shaft plane and somewhere around shoulder plane." As a result, I couldn't play dead in a western movie.

When I moved closer to 1-L, I played better. In fact, I was infinitely better. I am, by no means, perfect. But I will guarantee you that I have fewer moving parts, and as a result, better consistency. My search WAS, IS, AND ALWAYS WILL BE for an uncompensated stroke. As a result, I play better than I've ever played and have the scores to prove it. I tried going down the road of letting someone else convince me that they were smarter than Homer and had better ideas. If Homer says anything is an "ideal" or chooses one component over another, I accept his assessment. If anyone was ever thorough about anything, it was Homer. I was fooled once, but I'm smart enough not to be fooled twice. It was a blessing to meet someone like Lynn that's not trying to re-write Homer's work. And I'm not saying that you, Brian, are trying to do so. But if the Albert Eienstein of golf tells me that something is "recommended" and a guy from Louisiana tells me to do it differently, I'll have to choose the author of the book. I'm not trying to slight you because I think you're a good teacher. But, I think Homer got it right over, and over, and over, and over...................

In all honesty, the only area that I heard from you and that I would have a real problem implementing was the exaggerated finish swivel that had the clubface laying horizontal to the ground. I think that's a good thing for someone that steers to try to do, but I wouldn't have them do it in reality. Other than that, I think we had many more areas of agreement than disagreement.

Ted,

I NEVER teach a double shift....I DO allow it. Big difference.

You missed one important point, the guy from Louisiana could have made you a better player than the one who wouldn't adapt.

You see, that's IS the debate (and where your former teacher went wrong)

Adjust until it works or not.

Let the IMPERATIVES dictate the components.

Oh yeah, one day I'll show you how to fade it with a flat left wrist finish swivel.

No problem....IF you know how to teach.;)

The Correct Finish Swivel
 

Ted Fort teaches the correct Finish Swivel every day. He teaches that the Wrists rotate into a 'parallel to the Plane' position after the Follow-Through. And that Plane is Inclined, not Horizontal (4-D-0).

Annikan, I'm in your camp -- the camp that sleeps in more than one camp :)

I wouldn't label say this is a forest fire yet. I've seen much worse (not around here fortunately!). I love lively debates with a bit of emotion, people fighting for what they believe in. And this is what we have here.

The point is that Brian doesn't just teach the "through the neck pivot center". I think (correct me if I'm wrong Brian), if you were to coach Ted now, you would not get him to change from 'head center' to 'neck center'.

Could Eye Dominance play a roll here? Fat Jack was left eye dominant. Some theorist say that's why he did that turning his head to the right thing before start up . . .

the debate
 

The only debate I see is the willingness to follow Homer, his teachings, his reccommendations, and his variations in their purest form with component variations to follow. OR, one can choose to ignore his suggestions.
I have no problem teaching the appropriate finish swivel as explained in the book. It's not my own creation.

Really?

How 'bout that!

Back to topic...

Moving or Rotating?
 

Looks like Tiger's spine is closer to the target in frames 3 & 4? Then the patented Bobbing. But Eldrick's got MAJORs and Bucket's got a MAJOR addiction to chicken and taters. So what can you do?

I like annikan skywalker rear view. To me that is easier to see what is what regarding moving and rotation.

Does Tiger set up with his shoulders open somewhat to the target line? I couldn't quickly find a picture if he did or not.

None the less I think it shows the head rotation effect.

The hip rotation/slide on the backstroke

And the leg action on down and follow through. Boy that left leg really raises the left shoulder, changes the axis tilt.

Thought it was interesting his head never gets back to the position (alignment/orientation) that the had at address till the ball is well away. The second frame is closer to the impact position than the first.

Here are two more....

Mac O'Grady



Tom Purtzer

Dunno...on Mac

Portable A-Star on Purtzer


Since there is no universal manner or standard sfor all the pics we analyze such as camera height, distance to object, shutter speed, etc..it's hard to have a "controlled" environment that were all seeking...so the arguements will continue to exist until all pictures are take with a "control cube" and done in 3D...so the debate continues..

Lets just analyze them for the way they are..not the way they should be....

AS

Someone show me....
 

Last time I checked, my head is attached to my spine. When my spine moves back off the ball, so does my head. When my head moves back off the ball, so does my spine.

I have yet to see a picture that shows a spine moving without a head moving. I don't see how there is any difference between the head being the center of the pivot or the base of neck/top of spine. I'd like to see a picture showing one moving without the other.

Personally, I think you either sway off the ball or you don't. And if you sway off, you have to sway back to hit it.

I've done a lot of things with my swing over the years. I used to not move my head AND I had a reverse pivot. Then I went to swaying, which got rid of my reverse pivot. Last year, I put TGM into my swing, learned to set up properly to the ball and now I do not sway OR reverse pivot. It has made me a better player - without question.

as- mac's head appears to move slightly forward (toward the target) on the downswing (pic #5 ) and then maybe a bit backwards (pic 7 ), but perhaps this appearance is due to head rotation ... purtzer's head, however, certainly appears to move backwards on the downswing (pics 6&7 ) ... what is the particular significance (if any) to their head movements with respect to contributing to the efficiency of their individual swings. thanks.

I think it would be valid to say that how they are positioned at set up is not a good starting point to attempt to determine how much movement.

I think creating a marker at impact and then applying it backwards might be more valid.

With the exception of Mac, the movement between frame 1 and frame 2 appears to be more than the movement between frame 2 and frame 6.

Wonder if asked of each, what would they look like if they were asked to set up to the ball as if you at impact? Guess I am wondering if they know where they are going, or they know what they want out of feel and it results in them getting there?

The frames between 4 and 5 are needed to accurately measure Mr. Hogan's head movement. In these frames his head is still moving toward the target and dropping.

DRW

Yoda/Lynn, Yoda/Lynn,

Any interest in responding to these questions?

Also, what do you mean, Annikan, by the eyes or head changing the ball flight?

Can I Get An "Amen!"
 

This is an awesome post, Ted, and I totally agree with it (not that it will help you sleep any better at night).

While I'm handing out praise, I also agree with this. It's a very important point.

The Reverse Pivot Cure
 

Really pushed for time right now, Homerson, but I'll be posting in this thread in the next day or so.

Meanwhile, let me just say that the cure for the Reverse Pivot is the correct Pivot! That is, a Stationary Head properly supported by the Knees and Feet; a Flat Backstroke Shoulder and Hip Turn; and a proper Right Forearm Takeaway that Traces the Plane Line with Extensor Action applied.

Though the bending Right Elbow and Fanning Right Forearm are not Pivot Components, they can really help the Reverse Pivoter. That's because if the Arms are frozen (Paw Minor Basic Stroke 10-3-H) you're doomed to a 'rocking only' Body Motion that virtually guarantees a Reverse Pivot.

Not changing the ball flight...reread...changes with different ball flights...If the horizontal axis of the eyes are parallel to the plane line...it's easy to "trace" a straight plane line...If the horizontal axis of the eyes rotates to the clockwise ..so does the hand path and plane line tend to like to shift cross-line right.....likewise a counterclockwise rotation of the horizontal axis of the eyes the tendency for the hand path and plane line to shift cross-line left...

"The golf swing begins and ends with the eyes and the hands"....Mac O'Grady