The point I was trying to make is advancement. As a better player, I believe I am able to feel things in the golf swing that a lesser player would not be able to feel. Do you think that hi speed video the likes of the Swing Vision camera was available to Homer back then?

What is the definition of a 'planeoligist'? If we knew that we might ,at some point, be able to give this thread a purpose. Being a reasonably practical person, when I enter a room with sh!t covered walls I don't debate the intent, I move on.

Bumby

Just a general note on # 3.

That video shows just one of a myriad of possible plane angle shifts or none at all for that matter.

If you traced the clubhead (sweetspot) with dots you'd see a 2 D flat to plane circle for the (theoretical) zero shift procedure but then as you plane shift more ...beautiful curves would appear as you approach Furykian near constant shifting . (3 dimensional clubhead orbits ). Picasso like curves in their perfection.

Who was the mid century golfer who described a plane shift in the downswing as "paint my Picasso" ? Cant remember. Henry Cotton? Elk talked about it. Thinking he was British for some reason.

My apologies if i sound like a planeologist. I prefer the term Circleist. Cant understand ovals without first understanding circles. Cant undertand the effects on the clubhead orbit of shifting until you understand zero shift.

Not saying Kelvin was wrong, I hate those "shaft lines" too. But guys , professionals who know their golf geometry should not be discredited by the mistakes, false assumptions of others . A lot of which we're created back in the early days of video analysis . It was like "hey we got this video machine now ... .what the heck are we gonna draw on the screen?" Took a while to figure it all out. A long while.

Interestingly , position golf seems to have come into vogue around the time that photographs were included in golf books. It was sorta like ... " Ok here I am at the top of my backswing , club parallel to the ground".

Are we seeing a trend here? Are there false assumptions being drawn from todays doppler radar? I dunno. Maybe by some.

Where did I say he was bashing him? Just going a different direction, I have no problem with that...

Your point is a very good one, wish Id said that. Your Freudian slip, assuming it was a slip, on the spelling of your nom de plume is priceless. Never would have thought a discussion about golf geometry would come around to a story about a guy named Bumby entering a room with sh!t covered walls! This is one of heck of a thread!

comdpa's been around for a while .... I like him, just wondering whats up? Doesnt sound like him. Maybe we been hacked ? Divide and concur? Mike O. might be behind all of this.

Ok , NO to the high speed video thing. That didnt come along till recently. Agreed on the feel thing theoretically but he sure wrote some wonderful stuff about feel for a mid handicapper, no? I like it , obviously.

So what are you feeling and seeing on high speed then?

Relax homies, we are not hacked. Its just me thinking out loud. If the plane is the be all and end all of the swing, then how do we explain the difference between the following picture. Thanks for liking me...perhaps you could like me also on my Facebook page...Asian Golf Institute. And as you have correctly pointed out, I have been around awhile so the intention is not to stir shit but to discuss.



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Perhaps the best way to answer your question would be to reference the image posted above. Before high frames per second video became available, it was hard to pinpoint subtle moves of say the shoulders and hips in unison during the transition.

I have benefited from Mr. Kelley's magnus opus and have declared that many times on this site.

However, I believe that while Mr. Kelley has addressed the descriptive portion of the swing, he has left the explanatory portion of the swing to the Certified Instructors the likes of Lynn. Therefore, it is very unlikely that one would be able to use the yellow book effectively without a Certified Instructor as Mr. Kelley has advised against.

My bad...

"I think it has become "in vogue" to go against the grain of TGM and Homer Kelley, which I think is a shame."

Exactly. Thank you.

When you say "subtle moves" are you referring to Kelvins "micro moves"? Fine by me. If so just say it. No need to worry about offending. Id venture that a lot of us here are familiar with Kelvins work. Please elaborate on what works for you and your students.

As for the last paragraph.... well thats a big topic.

Since this is Lynn Blake's forum , let me say that anyone thinking that a lesson from Lynn would be akin to time with a TGM slide rule would be horribly mistaken. He teaches Homers Alignments yes but then moves over to MOTION. Hence his interest in the teachings of 1920's instructors (pre position golf) who taught in this manner. McDonald , Wild Bill Melhourne etc. A lesson with Lynn can be more like a dance lesson, no club a lot of the time. Lynn Blake teaches what he believes works given his long love for Homer , Bertholy , McDonald , Melhourne , Jones , Hogan , Nelson , Boomer etc etc. He can talk chapter and verse from TGM true but he can do the same with others works as well. Bob McDonald being a fave. Oh and anyone taking a series of lessons will no doubt get to know Paul Runyan's short game methodology.

As an aside and since this also a TGM friendly forum , Homer touched on similar notions of motion too if you know where to look ... 6-P-0 "Let the motion make the shot". The three stages of which impact doesnt rank. 12-0's "Finally, it is strongly recommended that, with or without an Authorized Instructor, the first steps into this System be via the procedure set out in Chapter 12-5, regardless of yoru present level of play."

Ive highlighted the parts above which remind me of motion as taught by Lynn , Wild Bill (who worked with Hogan , who displayed the essential drill on the Ed Sullivan show ), Bob MacD. and others . IMO motion when taught in this manner , can create the positions people admire in still photographs . For sure. It did for me. I had to "lose control to gain control ", (George Knudson) first of course. Easier said than done.


Comdpa, Im wondering if the above motion drills could also create the subtle moves you allude to? I dunno, perhaps......... Id like to know your thoughts on this.

How do you best incorporate these " subtle moves" into a students swing? Is video a key element? Can the student learn the moves on his own then? Im not trying to start a fight or anything these could be harmonious schools of thought in some manner. If it aint so in your opinion .....fine by me.

BTW I need more lardosis, I do!

Cheers