Originally Posted by O.B.Left (Post 71627)

Hey Partick...

result of a better clubhead orbit geometry...is getting better. You arent Steering the club...


Thanks, OB. This is very interesting. Let me try out my understanding of geometry on these insights of yours."Orbit," OB, is a great term. Let me change the term to "trajectory" to cover my question. The orbit or trajectory of the clubhead coming from an underhanded toss must be at a less severe angle than a punch elbow (unless a person is playing a particular low flying shot). In other words, the trajectory of a traced swing impacts the golf ball at a closer to horizontal direction than a punch or pitch motion. Those motions involve a trajectory that both horizontally and vertically compresses the ball in a different type of equal and opposite reactions to that type of contact.


- The Machine 1-L-15 "The club starts up-and-in after Low Point but the thrust continues down plane during Follow Through". Meaning that though the clubshaft (or pp#3) traces the straight line Plane Line and the clubhead moves up and in post low point, the thrust of the right arm, be it passive as in Swinging or Active as in Hitting continues down plane and therefor out towards the plane line until the right arm is straight. Follow Through. This is "going all the way down" to my mind. So thrust is cross line and the delivery line of the clubhead and the delivery line of the hands is inside out. Getting to Both ARms Straight completes the Orbit and the ball really likes that. Compression plus. A non bent plane line.

Thrust is a real force which compresses the golf ball. Thrust is not the club head material stiking the ball. Thrust rides along with the clubhead material striking the ball. I believe the thrusting force of a swing is different in nature than the thrusting force of a hit. The "throwing out" force of the swinger has different directional features than the striking force of a hitter. The measured power may be similar in both cases but the resulting impacts must be different.

-Hitting makes this cross line thrust of the right arm and getting to both arms straight more apparent. The fact you say Yoda looked like he was extending his right arm in a linear way suggests Hitting to me. This would be Push Basic 10-3-C Major Basic Stroke. A hitting procedure but for short shots only. Long shots having a different arm motion employing a non linear, fanning and bending Right Arm Motion. I dont know what film you were looking at but if it is Alignment Golf with VJ Trolio. From memory Id say VJ was demonstrating Push Basic, but not Lynn. There is a little fanning in there I believe.

Here is the video I was studying, OB, at about the middle of the video.
http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/index.p...5&video_id=139
What if I lengthened my clubs and shortened my tripod which is exactly my situation? Couldn't I simply punch shot punch bug buggy my way around the universe with more dependable and effective power than any similarly conditioned 53 year old person?

-Which brings me a point I got stuck on and maybe you are too, if I read you correctly. I mistakenly tried to make all hitting shots a linear Push Basic type deal which set me back some. See the Major and Minor Strokes 10-3. The Arm Motion when seen in isolation changes as the stoke lengthens. For longer shots you must fan and bend the right arm, like a side arm throw , like skipping a stone or maybe a slightly more linear fish spearing. The Hitter with a Punch 10-3-A Elbow, the Swingers Pitch 10-3-B Elbow. See this video here of Yoda and watch the right arm only motion he displays towards the end of it. He maybe wasnt expecting us to look at this microscopically or anything but it sure isnt a Push Basic linear motion for hitting is it? No Sir.

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/index.p....-Hitting.html

Originally Posted by O.B.Left (Post 71627)

Hey Partick

The success you are seeing is as a result of a better clubhead orbit Id say. Your geometry is getting better. You arent Steering the club straight down the target line etc. And your questions are really good ones too as this geometry is pretty confusing unless you are so inclined. Even then it takes some work to see how it isnt what you first think it should be. Linear Force. 2-C-0 is a great study in how to apply force to golf ball with a whirling and non linear, circular motion. I think all the geometry is extrapolated from 2-C-0 solution. We try to make it Linear (Steering) but to our own detriment cause it cant be, for full compression anyways. Not for this side on stick and ball game of ours. Linear force for low compression works though, ask any hacker (driver) or any tour pro (lob shot). See 2-C-3.

Kev will come in here and knock this one otta the park but in the mean time here's a couple of things to think about.

-given the inclined plane, for balls played back of low point a straight line or a curve drawn from impact to separation will point towards the plane line, your "cross line" if you will. See 2-C-1 #2B. Not to be mistaken with a Cross Line Stroke (a plane line that points out to right field), its an inside out Delivery Line of the Clubhead for a straight plane line. This curve is relates to the concept of Tracing, the straight line to Covering. 2-J-3 (but if you read this your head will explode).

- The closer the balls position gets to low point the less the cross line nature of this inside out, Clubhead Delivery Line. So Hogan hit the inside aft of the ball, yes , but the point of contact changed, got closer to the back of the ball as the ball position approached low point. The guys who tee a ball up in front of Low Point will have the curve pointing away from the plane line as the clubhead moves up and in. Which you can also see in that diagram.

-For swingers or hitters using the Arc of Approach the Clubhead blur can be seen by the eye , during address routine waggles (8-0) and during the actual strike to travel the Inside Outside curve that connects these same two points. Impact and Low point. A great thing with which to wage war against Steering. 3-F-7-A. Cause it aint straight at the hole. Unless you are trying to hit a floater, lob shot. See diagram 2-C-3 #2 The Lob Shot . No (or very little) compression.

- The Machine 1-L-15 "The club starts up-and-in after Low Point but the thrust continues down plane during Follow Through". Meaning that though the clubshaft (or pp#3) traces the straight line Plane Line and the clubhead moves up and in post low point, the thrust of the right arm, be it passive as in Swinging or Active as in Hitting continues down plane and therefor out towards the plane line until the right arm is straight. Follow Through. This is "going all the way down" to my mind. So thrust is cross line and the delivery line of the clubhead and the delivery line of the hands is inside out. Getting to Both ARms Straight completes the Orbit and the ball really likes that. Compression plus. A non bent plane line.

-Hitting makes this cross line thrust of the right arm and getting to both arms straight more apparent. The fact you say Yoda looked like he was extending his right arm in a linear way suggests Hitting to me. This would be Push Basic 10-3-C Major Basic Stroke. A hitting procedure but for short shots only. Long shots having a different arm motion employing a non linear, fanning and bending Right Arm Motion. I dont know what film you were looking at but if it is Alignment Golf with VJ Trolio. From memory Id say VJ was demonstrating Push Basic, but not Lynn. There is a little fanning in there I believe.

-Which brings me a point I got stuck on and maybe you are too, if I read you correctly. I mistakenly tried to make all hitting shots a linear Push Basic type deal which set me back some. See the Major and Minor Strokes 10-3. The Arm Motion when seen in isolation changes as the stoke lengthens. For longer shots you must fan and bend the right arm, like a side arm throw , like skipping a stone or maybe a slightly more linear fish spearing. The Hitter with a Punch 10-3-A Elbow, the Swingers Pitch 10-3-B Elbow. See this video here of Yoda and watch the right arm only motion he displays towards the end of it. He maybe wasnt expecting us to look at this microscopically or anything but it sure isnt a Push Basic linear motion for hitting is it? No Sir.

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/index.p....-Hitting.html

Originally Posted by O.B.Left (Post 71627)

Hey Partick

The success you are seeing is as a result of a better clubhead orbit Id say. Your geometry is getting better. You arent Steering the club straight down the target line etc. And your questions are really good ones too as this geometry is pretty confusing unless you are so inclined. Even then it takes some work to see how it isnt what you first think it should be. Linear Force. 2-C-0 is a great study in how to apply force to golf ball with a whirling and non linear, circular motion. I think all the geometry is extrapolated from 2-C-0 solution. We try to make it Linear (Steering) but to our own detriment cause it cant be, for full compression anyways. Not for this side on stick and ball game of ours. Linear force for low compression works though, ask any hacker (driver) or any tour pro (lob shot). See 2-C-3.

Kev will come in here and knock this one otta the park but in the mean time here's a couple of things to think about.

-given the inclined plane, for balls played back of low point a straight line or a curve drawn from impact to separation will point towards the plane line, your "cross line" if you will. See 2-C-1 #2B. Not to be mistaken with a Cross Line Stroke (a plane line that points out to right field), its an inside out Delivery Line of the Clubhead for a straight plane line. This curve is relates to the concept of Tracing, the straight line to Covering. 2-J-3 (but if you read this your head will explode).

- The closer the balls position gets to low point the less the cross line nature of this inside out, Clubhead Delivery Line. So Hogan hit the inside aft of the ball, yes , but the point of contact changed, got closer to the back of the ball as the ball position approached low point. The guys who tee a ball up in front of Low Point will have the curve pointing away from the plane line as the clubhead moves up and in. Which you can also see in that diagram.

-For swingers or hitters using the Arc of Approach the Clubhead blur can be seen by the eye , during address routine waggles (8-0) and during the actual strike to travel the Inside Outside curve that connects these same two points. Impact and Low point. A great thing with which to wage war against Steering. 3-F-7-A. Cause it aint straight at the hole. Unless you are trying to hit a floater, lob shot. See diagram 2-C-3 #2 The Lob Shot . No (or very little) compression.

- The Machine 1-L-15 "The club starts up-and-in after Low Point but the thrust continues down plane during Follow Through". Meaning that though the clubshaft (or pp#3) traces the straight line Plane Line and the clubhead moves up and in post low point, the thrust of the right arm, be it passive as in Swinging or Active as in Hitting continues down plane and therefor out towards the plane line until the right arm is straight. Follow Through. This is "going all the way down" to my mind. So thrust is cross line and the delivery line of the clubhead and the delivery line of the hands is inside out. Getting to Both ARms Straight completes the Orbit and the ball really likes that. Compression plus. A non bent plane line.

-Hitting makes this cross line thrust of the right arm and getting to both arms straight more apparent. The fact you say Yoda looked like he was extending his right arm in a linear way suggests Hitting to me. This would be Push Basic 10-3-C Major Basic Stroke. A hitting procedure but for short shots only. Long shots having a different arm motion employing a non linear, fanning and bending Right Arm Motion. I dont know what film you were looking at but if it is Alignment Golf with VJ Trolio. From memory Id say VJ was demonstrating Push Basic, but not Lynn. There is a little fanning in there I believe.

-Which brings me a point I got stuck on and maybe you are too, if I read you correctly. I mistakenly tried to make all hitting shots a linear Push Basic type deal which set me back some. See the Major and Minor Strokes 10-3. The Arm Motion when seen in isolation changes as the stoke lengthens. For longer shots you must fan and bend the right arm, like a side arm throw , like skipping a stone or maybe a slightly more linear fish spearing. The Hitter with a Punch 10-3-A Elbow, the Swingers Pitch 10-3-B Elbow. See this video here of Yoda and watch the right arm only motion he displays towards the end of it. He maybe wasnt expecting us to look at this microscopically or anything but it sure isnt a Push Basic linear motion for hitting is it? No Sir.

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/index.p....-Hitting.html

Originally Posted by O.B.Left (Post 71642)

Ok. Got you. Sorry. Words, they some times fail us in that when we think we are talking about the same thing , we often arent. For this reason Homer really wanted us to stick to his definitions lest we enter the tower of babble. You'd be crazy to take the book of riddles into the tower of babble wouldnt you? Its hard enough to comprehend or discuss already.

This is my problem since I form my own construct and then find the author's/curricula's point of view. I need to start using the language, OB. The good news ia that when I understand a concept, I really can describe it to lots of people and put it into practice.[/color]

So to bring this into Homer vocabulary , we must adhere to Geometry of the Circle. Center, Radius, Circumference , chords, tangents etc. The Circle itself represents the clubhead Line of flight and lies on the Inclined Plane. It is two dimensional! It must be both to lie flat on a plane and for the Radius (the clubshaft or sweetspot plane more correctly ) to point at a Straight Line Base Line.


LOL. I have been visualizing a tilted circle now for 10 days in a soft blue color. I started with Yoda's remark about imagining a straight line extending to infinity. One day on the range the inclined plane of the clubshaft sortof just jumped out! A couple of days later, I figured out that the right forearm lays on the inclined plane and extends forward past impact down the infinite blue line known as the impact line. Most of the time, my impact line is my target line though I am growing more aware of the problems with that. That was very comforting. I feel that my golf swing is logical, now.


It would be excellent if the forum could run a margin down each page that could show "The Geometry of the Circle" which Kevin was so generous in sharing with me. People need to stare at that while talking about it. I also think this forun should have a way for people to voluntarily pay when good advice is given. Thanks to this advice you all have shared, I posted two 44's and a 43 the other day on top-dressed greens and swampy fairways counting every stroke. The technology exists at "JustAsk.com," and I paid some KIA mechanic $25 for helping me decide to add antifreeze to my radiator after he dignosed my car's problem. It took 15 minutes during my lunch break and he saved me at least $100 dollars since the car was losing power. The weather changes were affecting the fluid levels.I used Paypal and the info was sent to my Blackberry.[/color]

Which it must. Steering misdirects the clubhead towards the target, making the Orbit 3 dimensional , bending the plane line. Like the circling satellite , once the orbit is disturbed , disaster awaits. I think your great results , after getting to Both Arms Straight could very well be the product of an undisturbed, 2 dimensional orbit. Straight line plan line. One of the Three Imperatives, check it off. To go all the way down plane to Low Point, to keep on thrusting towards the plane line till the right arm is straight makes Steering the clubhead anyways, impossible. Steering the clubhead when viewed on the Geometry of the Circle shows the clubhead going down plane and therefore out given any angle to the Inclined Plane but then veering prematurely along a chord, a Target Line prior to low point.


I simply rest my right shoulder on the inclined plane and turn the shoulder up plane or pull it with the elbow uplane. The inclined plane helped me discover I had too much weight on the balls of my feet. By monitoring the balance of the club I could feel the club get very light on the way up plane while rotating and my weight wanted to go to my heels. At the hitting position is where I have/or where we all have some choices to make. And this is where I need to spend more time on the range and with the TGM book.

1)Bumping my right hip or right knee parallel to the impact line allows my back shoulder to ride down the inclined plane and I feel the club accelerate down, out, forward and up, in and back. I think this is a swing which is fine. I like to use this to put the ball high into the air. It is very simple and powerful. It just doesn't do many tricks!

2) Driving my right/back elbow down to the ball "quarters" the orbit and circumference. The right elbow feels to create a shortcut down the plane/orbit/circumfernce and looks like a construction of a diamond or triangle face on if I ignore the true curve and just see the "elbow secant or ray." When my elbow zips down the elbow secant like a snowboarder down a mountain, I can make that ball do low, medium, and high trajectories aided by the clubface (left hand) when necessary.

3) My right arm has its own secant or should it be my right pp#3? I think one end of the secant can be the ball for a pp#3 ray or secant. I think that is the sweetspot. I have also been pointing the ray along the impact line for real zip. I bump my knees and fire or "ride the ray." I need more time on the range on this.[/color]



I dream of a golf world where for decades hackers the world over had cried "Keep your club head going down" instead of the usual free advice. I love this!

I like your "trajectory" observations. This relates to the Plane Angle, The Angle of Attack see 2-C-1 #2B and also the Divergent Vectors of 2-N-1. Generally speaking more pivot means more Horizontal , turning motion. Better suited to Tracing, ARc of Approach etc. The Right Arm itself is subject to the forces of the coming on stream pivot and so it must adjust to maintain its on the inclined plane nature and ability to Trace. See Pivot in the Glossary. This is Hands to Pivot to my mind as opposed to an idea that the Hands must proceed the pivot sequentially or something. They just direct that's all. Like raising a coffee to your mouth while the taxi driver takes a corner at high speed. The hands adjust quite nicely despite the introduction of forces with contrary vectors. The Hands net out on plane. Unless the forces are too much and too divergent, then you have a mess to clean up. In the cab or on the course. Bent Plane Line or coffee on your dress shirt. I'll need more time here to unpack this.I have to focus on "Straight line plane line.." I think that is the elbow/arm/pp#3 parallel secants/rays.


The Neeman video is great. 12-5-0 comes alive and unplugged at one point there too. When you said linear and punch I thought you were talking hitting chipping, Push Basic, lawn mower cord pulling, elbow sawing or whatever. Which is not on display in that particular video. No Sir. Not displayed in any video by Yoda personally, I don't believe. Trying to remember. Its a catalogues procedure , for short shots , not long. Glad to hear you are fanning and bending your right arm then. You avoided my Hitting stumbling block. [color="Blue"]The fanning/bending allows the club to ride along it's designed plane most effectively with the back hip being pushed out of the way. Pushing the hip out of the way helps the efficient process repeat going down plane and then around.




Id say you can "punch" a shot either Hitting or Swinging although we commonly associate it with Hitting. If you feel better punching your way around the course then go for it. To me its sort of a more driving, staccato, compact motion normally with the ball played back a tad , which given the geometry of the circle means there'll be more turf taken post impact as you make it all the way down to low point. More inside out to the clubheads Delivery Line then too. Trevino comes to mind. He Angled Hinged it too. Normally fades resulting with a push tendency. Need to rotate the clubface in the grip maybe. If it seems like you are Covering a straight line out to right field dont get gun shy, you're probably Hitting using the Angle of Approach. A true cross line stroke for a straight shot. 2-J-3 But dont read that or you'll go insane. Wait a bit.

You've been at TGM for what like a month or two now? Wow.

Originally Posted by O.B.Left (Post 71646)

Your geometry and visual thinking is really good, do you teach it? Or art maybe?


I grew up in a Chicago saloon with a pool and snooker table and geometry has always appealed to me. I also studied Art History in Florence and Paris as part of a semester abroad college program, but truth be told, I did it for the multinational chicks and beers. :naughty: So, I guess we could say that unlike another forum member that struggled with lots of left wrist cock, I was plagued by circles, curves, and angles of all sorts.[/color]

Homer said that the Relationships could be described by a 2 D geometric figure.......that lies on an inclined plane. The clubhead's orbit is a circle, the concept of the Right Elbow cocking the left Wrist is a triangle which sees the shortening of one side increase the angle opposite. So, simply extending the right arm "rebuilds" the triangle. OB, or anyone, how necessary is a straight left arm at address? Is it simply a simplification allowing an easier path to "both arms straight?"[/color]


I totally agree that drawings, animations even are needed. Maybe some day. It would be "ah now I get it" kinda deal for most all of us. From some GSED's on down. I have a few things Id like to see drawn out, that for sure. I wonder if Homer had some drawings that didnt make the book??? The format of "The Golfing Machinist" is very visual. They rave about our LBG site. I think a combination of the two would take our excellent instruction to an even higher level. I've given about 40 home-made cards with LBG.com to people at the range. I talked to the range pro and gave him a card. I told him that if he was ever interested in a fine org. that would back him up and give him plenty to teach, this is the site. We'll see."[/color][/color]




This is what the book is all about to my mind. Three Dimensional Impact. For maximum compression the point of contact between the ball and clubface stays together ("as if welded together") and is taken Down , Out and Forward . Down and Out , literally for straight line Plane Lines. The ball leaves at right angles to the face at separation so the face at impact must be .....open. Horizontal Hinging required.

Is it open for all clubs, OB? Is there a longer club = more closed clubface somewhere, or am I just bleary-eyed from TGM mania? the moment the arms are both straight is where the plane "turns the corner." Anywhere prior to that with an open face will result in a draw or straightish shot if the club is aimed at the back inside quadrant. I must be getting the ball too far back when I push the ball 5-10 yards to my right?
[/color]

I went to the range last night and hit some 12-5 stuff as I always do and remembered the Neeman tape of yours. Id forgotten about the "chip, pitch, punch , punch with swivel" thing. Thanks, thats a great Yoda drill to work through.

I do this now as a warm-up and even with a short basket of 20 balls at my home course, I feel like I can conquer the world when I'm done.[/color]

It reminded me of Mr Yoda's remarks from the Premium video he did with Jeff Hull. Cant remember which one but they both really good if you havent seen them.

I will puchase these shortly. There is so much to take in on the premium videos that I haven't even looked at the putting video yet. Just using the elbow stroke kept me on line all last weekend! Whether I left the ball short due to sand or top dressing, or if I rammed the putt through the break , I wasn't being fooled.[/color]

Anyways, the "punch" is additional force or Lag Pressure applied to the same length of swing, Acquired Motion be you hitting or swinging. Stopping at Both ARms Straight ensures that you have competed the orbit something often missing when you swing past there , especially for Swingers. It feels so simple, so powerful even despite the abreviated motion. Yoda notes how its only 5 or 10 yards short of full distance. That going from Acquired with its parallel to the ground right arm to Top ( Right Shoulder high), Total Motion is only a few more inches......... That Allan Doyle Acquired Motions his way around the course. Total motion actually feels like a resting back stroke in comparison to hitting. I've decided to think of my front leg "bracing" rather than pivoting so then I can fire out to full extension. Is the "axe-handle" a brace and an underhanded toss? Is a "crap-smacker" an axehandle? Will I get better looking if I continue to use TGM? :laughing9 [/color]

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/index.p...=85&video_id=4

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/index.p...5&video_id=122



OB, is Yoda driving his wedges at the bag shown above, or is his pivot firing his wedges out.?[/color]

We tend to overdo Total Motion , its only a few inches and a Finish Swivel past Acquired to get to full distance. Getting to Both ARms straight is a must prior to Swiveling to Finish. Something you wont read in other forms of instruction. But the Orbit it completes, drives the crap out of the ball. In the Neeman tape Yoda chuckles to himself.........."hear those compressions?" I did, in person , thats why Im here right now. Starting to to hear it more often in my own shots too. I was four under on the back nine of my first game down in Florida. Two over front , four under back with a bogey on 17.

Very fine play, OB! What is your "goto" motion or swing thought? When you grind, what goes through your mind? Since you're in Florida, the swamps must be full of stud-muffin golf maniacs. When someone tries to hustle you, how can you discover they are holding back? Whena Godzilla shows up to burn Tokyo, namely you, how do they try to intimidate you? :golf:

My first meeting with my TGM guy is next weekend. I'm a little nervous, but it will be good to have a trained eye examine the reality of my feelings vs. my mechanics. There will be a video shot, too. [/color] :confused1


Thank you Yoda , Ted and Homer. Got a ways to go though. More work to be done.

Originally Posted by O.B.Left (Post 71650)

Im 51, live in Toronto. Dont play for more than a beer. Still like to play in some amateur tournaments. My "goto" is whatever is working. When I grind, I dont know what Im thinking about to tell you the truth. Not mechanics , not if Im grinding well anyways. Maybe its as simple as how to get from A to B when things are working. Sort of like playing for shape in snooker or pool. If im thinking about mechanics Im either practicing or in big trouble when playing. Which happens to everyone I guess. I saw Justin Rose on Masters Saturday getting a full on lesson. He'd lead after round one , blew up round two and was searching for something for round three. Better to just find something, a punch shot or whatever to get you out of there. Its like acting , you just cant be in your own head, I dont think.

Crappsmacker is a new convert to Hitting I believe. Notice the Hitters Top.

Only Lynn would now if he was Hitting or Swinging there. Its really hard to notice the difference visually with some people. Maybe a bit of thrusting in that last pass at the bag at Both Arms Straight, just guessing though.

Yes if the shortening right side of the triangle cocks the left wrist, lengthening it will uncock the left wrist. I see this in my downswing when I dont necessarily want it...........as the left arm pulls away from the shoulders (which can only mean the right arm is lengthening) , the Left Wrist uncocks. So for me anyways, I have to keep that Right shoulder turning to delay the release. Its not a wrist thing, despite first appearances. Hanging on to wrist cock in an effort to delay release is ill advised.

A slightly bent left arm at address isnt all bad. Lots of great players do it. I believe there is a post in here somewhere where Lynn introduces Brian Gay to Larry Nelson and the two discuss that very issue. Both those players have a soft arm at address, I think. CF or an adoption of Extensor Action will stretch the Radius to full length. Id imagine you'd have to straighten it out for Impact Fix so your Radius from left shoulder to ball, is properly measured. To properly establish the point in 3D space for the left shoulder. Never thought about that before though. That would mean the clubface would not be directly behind the ball given the shortened radius I think? More towards the toe when the club is hovered slightly off the ground even.

Your push is clubface related, Id imagine. Open face. It could be a product of many different things. Hopefully your pro can give you the diagnosis you need to fix it. Dont blame the new inside out Arc of Approach for it, its not that. Not if you are tracing a straight plane line. Its not clubshaft in other words. The ball leaves at right angles to the clubface at separation.