LynnBlakeGolf Forums - Horizontal hinging versus swivel

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff (Post 52517)

I have still not received an informative opinion that explains the biomechanical difference between a finish swivel action and horizontal hinging - with respect to the movement of the left hand.

Consider this particular problem from this angle.

Here is photo of Kevin Na's clubhead path through the impact zone.

One can see that his splined clubhead path demonstrates that he is swinging his clubshaft on the inclined plane and that he is tracing the base of the plane line post-impact. At the same time, his clubface has rotated counterclockwise while the clubshaft is travelling on the inclined plane - and this represents his horizontal hinging action. HK states that it occurs due to rotary forces operating at left shoulder level, and one can imagine that there is a hinge joint horizontally oriented at the level of the left shoulder - as demonstrated in this TGM photo.

The effect of this hinge action is that the back of the left hand supinates slightly while it is moving up the inclined plane. Supination is a rotary motion, which means that the left hand is rotating during this horizontal hinge action phenomenon. Tiger Woods describes this "feeling" as the feeling of turning the knuckles of the left hand towards the ground after impact. He is therefore aware of a rotation of the left hand. That left hand rotation (supination) is no different to the more complete rotation (supination) that occurs fractionally later in time (during the finish swivel) as the left hand supinates more fully so that the back of the left hand lies against the inclined plane. The only difference is that the first left hand rotation (during the followthrough) primarily occurs due a rotation of the left shoulder socket left-backwards (as part of the torso pivoting action) + rotation of the left arm/forearm unit at the left shoulder socket level, while the second left hand rotation (during the finish swivel) primarily occurs due to left elbow folding and left forearm fanning combined with an active pronation of the right forearm. Although the biomechanical driving mechanisms are different, surely the left hand is rotating (supinating) throughout the followthrough and finish phases of the swing, and it is really a continuous rotary movement.

Jeff.

Jeff . . . . I haven't read all of this but the picture that you put up of Kevin Nah is MAJOR shooting the hands and arms off the torso and swinging right. He has disrupted the #3 angle and the face will rotate fast as a result.

Hinging is simply holding your left wrist vertical to one of the basic planes (Vertical Horizontal and Angled). But your hinging is going to APPEAR different for each plane angle and the amoumt of #3 Angle you set (angle between left arm and shaft).

So it's really difficult to pin point hinging without considering the plane angle and #3 angle which are related. So Horizontal Hinging is going to look MUCH DIFFERENT on the Elbow Plane than the Turned Shoulder Plane. Why? Because the more #3 angle you set the more clubhead TRAVEL you get and the less face rotation for a given amount of roll.

That being said . . . if you are swinging down on the elbow plane and then disrupt #3 (on purpose or not) you have essential SHIFTED PLANES . . . which in turn is going to impact the rate of face closure . . . Homer said that "Plane shifts are hazardous." I would venture to say that the closer to the ball you get the MORE HAZARDOUS they become.

So some people may intentionally disrupt #3 by swinging "out to right field". Others may disrupt #3 for a variety of reasons unintentionally . . . standing up or Bobbing for example. So if you don't have a centered pivot and you RAISE UP (early extension as some say) . . . Bob . . . then you will disrupt #3 and the face may not perform as predictably as you intended.

Here's two examples . . . Furyk has major whacky shifting going on EARLY but once he gets to release point his #3 angle DOES NOT CHANGE. Els on the other hand raises the hands up through the ball and the face closes much faster. Both play GREAT golf . . . but there are obvious differences in the hand paths through the ball.

Furyk . . .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFDRebJy8ac

Els . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-1y8lEJUqo

I would say there is a difference in the Delivery Lines here . . . One is using Arc of Approach . . . the other maybe Swinging on the Angle of Approach.

12 piece bucket

What you have stated makes a lot of sense - the amount of roll a golfer gets (during the horizontal hinging action) depends on the angle between the clubshaft and left arm (as seen from a DTL view).

Although HK states that the left hand is responsible for controlling the clubface during the hinging action, doesn't the degree of straightening/pronation of the right hand during the followthrough have a major effect on the hinging action.

Consider capture images from the Anthony Kim video.

I get the impression that his right hand is straightening and pronating during the followthrough. Doesn't that right hand action induce horizontal hinging by promoting a roll action during the followthrough period? Isn't that right hand action what Nick Bradley describes as a puck release - see the next photo?

Jeff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff (Post 52545)

Jeff.

Left hand is responsible for clubface. It is possible to over-ride that condition by this puck move of Bradley. You lose flat, level , and vertical left wrist. You shorten the radius to the left wrist. You lose the rhythym component. The club is no longer in the plane of the left wrist cock.

DTL is the right view to examine #3. Face on would be better to see if his right wrist unbends as you describe. I would think that if Kim were doing so, we would see the shaft bending up around the wrist and up some plane rather than appearing to point to the plane line, still in rhythym with the left arm.

Hennybogan - I thought that flat, level, vertical only applied to the left wrist at impact, and not to the followthrough phase of the swing. During the followthrough phase, the left hand will be vertical to its base plane (eg. ground in horizontal hinging, which means that it is supinated relative to the inclined plane). The puck release doesn't cause the left wrist to bend as the right hand pronates. However, the right wrist pronation does cause the left hand to supinate. While the right hand pronates, it also causes the degree of right wrist bend (that is present at impact) to diminish.

Jeff.

On Plane . . . Not Under Plane

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff (Post 52545)

Consider capture images from the Anthony Kim video.

If you are comparing Anthony Kim in photo #3 to its Nick Bradley #3 'puck' counterpart, my answer is . . .

No.

There is such a huge difference here. PLEASE tell me you can see it!

:eusa pray:

Yoda - please enlighten me.

Jeff.

Plane and Power Stuff

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff (Post 52566)

Yoda - please enlighten me.

Jeff.

Three versus Three? Look closely!

I have never quite understood Nick Bradley's description of his "puck release" concept in his book, and he likens it to the motion that a hockey player would make when flicking a puck on the ice. What worries me about his mental analogy/photo-illustration is that the right wrist seems to straighten immediately post-impact while the left wrist seems to bend. It is my impression (when reading TGM) that HK wants the right wrist to remain bent in the immediate post-impact period, thereby maintaining a FLW, while the right elbow is straightening. I sense that Anthony Kim is fully straightening his right elbow post-impact while keeping a slightly bent right wrist/FLW.

Anybody - Am I wrong, and missing a major factor?

Jeff.

left forearm flying wedge

Jeff,

First, Bradley has some interesting things in his book. This puck release business might be how a hockey player flicks the puck over the goalie's shoulder, but I don't think it's how he would whistle one from the blue line. I nearly bought the book until I read about his release motion.

Second, the left forearm flying wedge (search if you need to) should remain intact throughout the motion. One thing that can get very confusing is that the look of maintaing the wedge, ie, left wrist cock in the plane of the left arm (see rhythym) varies greatly with grip type. The easiest way to understand it (and probably to do it) is with a 10-2-B grip, but the wedge can be maintained with a variety of grips. To further the confusion, you may see varying rates of re-cocking from very fast to none at all. And different amounts of #3 accum based on how diagonal one fits his level wrist to the grip. Oh, and plane shifts, etc.

The only way I can see that you can unbend the right wrist fully without bending the left wrist is to have the right wrist bend in the plane of the left wrist cock. Or like VJ, Couples, and sometimes Philly Mic, you could let the right hand detach from the club though impact. You will need Talent with a capital T for that move.

I strongly recommend watching the Yoda videos on the hammering motion (velocity power) of the left wrist. It is pretty simple in that context. Then, examine how that motion can be made with a variety of grip types (not recommending not using 10-2-B) and how the look changes but the motion of the club does not.

Good luck.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoda (Post 52561)

Nick's number three keeps the golfer in Hackerville. A total violation of the Bent Level Right wrist. A throw-away collapse of the flying wedges. A Pp#3 breakdown. A non-swivel motion. on and on. But to poor Nick- it seems reasonable. He is unprincipled. Our principles are simple and complete- 2-0, 5-0 and 1-L.