Originally Posted by 3Putt (Post 49157)

Hey 12 Piece.... wow and many thanks for your time put into the response. I feel a little bad that you had to regress so far on my behalf. But I do appreciate it and you did tweak some new thought patterns that I need to take to the incubator.

Originally Posted by 3Putt (Post 49157)

Hey 12 Piece.... wow and many thanks for your time put into the response. I feel a little bad that you had to regress so far on my behalf. But I do appreciate it and you did tweak some new thought patterns that I need to take to the incubator.

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket (Post 49150)

You are correct . . .the book AIN'T easy. Homer was a pretty good writer but he was very ambitious to get it all said and said just one time so the book wouldn't be 800 pages long. The earlier editions were only around 130 to 150 pages long. I think the 3rd edition was the first to incorporate cross referencing.

Now let's tackle your second question . . .

First you have several things to consider conceptually to get one of the more difficult questions that people have asked . . .

So FIRST the Inclined Plane . . .

This ain't a very difficult one to get you can have 3 types of Basic Planes as Homer described them (Horizontal, Vertical, and Inclined). There is only 1 Horizontal and 1 Vertical right? But inbetween there is infinite Inclined (angled like a roof) Planes.

Next, the Sweetspot of the golf club (not the shaft for Homer's purposes) moves on the Inclined Plane. And for conceptual purposes let's say that the path that the Sweetspot travels on is a Circle. That circle is inscribed on the Inclined Plane.

Now that we got a circle on the plane, we must determine the center of that circle . . . which Homer said was the left shoulder. So imagine a ball down there on the ground on the plane. The sweetspot is traveling down and out and forward ON-PLANE. (Remember the a vertical plane would only have DOWN and UP. A horizontal plane would only have IN and OUT). Since we are on an Inclined Plane the clubmoves in 3 dimensions (Down, Out, and Forward ALL ON PLANE).

So imagine the club and sweetspot traveling down and out on plane and then touching the ball. Through that point Homer drew a line parallel to the ground from the Impact Point and named it the Impact Plane Line. The club and its sweetspot CONTINUE Down and Out ON PLANE AFTER IMPACT POINT UNTIL THE SWEETSPOT REACHES ITS LOWEST POINT----OPPOSITE THE LEFT SHOULDER THE CENTER OF THE STROKE. From the lowest point Homer drew a line and called it the LOW POINT PLANE LINE. For an iron shot the Low Point Plane Line is actually UNDERGROUND. So ALL STROKES SHOULD BE DRIVEN THROUGH IMPACT POINT AND CONTINUE DOWN AND OUT ON PLANE THROUGH LOW POINT.

After low point since the arms are connected to the shoulders the club begins to trave UP AND IN ON PLANE . . . but he effort is still down.

So that is the basics of the Geometry of the Circle.

So to your question . . . . for the club to be on plane the end of the club lowest to the ground POINTS AT THE PLANE LINE (Impact Plane Line) otherwise when the club is parallel to the ground it is parallel to the plane line. You can practice this with a laser gizmo or a two flashlights taped together or the club or a dowel. Get used to your hands pointing at the plane line down on the ground thru the entire stroke.

To get into the hand motions you are inquiring about . . . it is best to isolate the independently.

1. The #2 Accumlator - Cocking and Uncocking the Left Wrist. This is a HAMMERING MOTION. So grab a hammer slap your left had on it as if you were gripping a club. Now just hammer your desk or something. That is how the cocking and uncocking works in isolation on a VERTICAL PLANE. Fiddle with your grip on the hammer. Notice how if you grip it "weaker" your left wrist cock and uncocks and the wrist remains FLAT. Now if you grip it "strong" with your left palm Turned more on top of the hammer there is BENDING of the wrist with the Cocking and Uncocking. See how that works?

But this is on a Vertical Plane and we play golf on what??? An INCLINED PLANE. So grab your golf club with your left hand only. Go somewhere where you have a straight line to guide you. Stand to the line as if it were your target line (but if you are going to be a Machine cat it's the Plane Line). Now do your Left Wrist Cocking and Uncocking TO THAT PLANE LINE . . . while keeping the end of the club closest to the ground POINTING AT THE PLANE LINE. Cock it up On-Plane point at the Plane Line. Uncock it On-Plane to the Plane Line. Monkey with the "strong" Left Hand and the "weak" Left Hand grip. Notice how the "weak" grip requires Turning and Rolling of the hand to keep the club On-Plane? Notice how with the "strong" grip how the motion HAS TO BE DIFFERENT with the hands to keep the club pointing at the line as you cock and uncock?

Now for the #3 Accumulator. This is kind of a toughie to get. Go get your book and turn to chapter 4. Look at the picture in that chapter of LEVEL. Notice how it is REALLY close to UNCOCKED? The #3 Accumulator Angle is the angle between the club and the left arm . . . . WHEN THE LEFT WRIST IS IN ITS LEVEL CONDITION. Why LEVEL you may be thinking? Because ALL ALIGNMENTS ARE DERIVED FROM IMPACT. And at Impact the Left Wrist according to Homer should be Flat, LEVEL and Vertical. Flat Level and Vertical for a "weak" grip . . . which Homer called a Strong Grip but that's another post. For the "strong" grip . . . the Impact conditions for the Left Wrist are Flat LEVEL and Turned. Remember how your wrist worked when it was "strong?"

So basically to go fully Down and Out on Plane . . . you are uncocking your left wrist to impact to its Level condition. From Impact to low point you are still going DOWN AND OUT ON PLANE. The Left Wrist is in its Level condition and that #3 Accumulator Angle we set up earlier is Rolled with the "weak" grip from Impact Point to Low Point while you point at the line. All the while you are STILL UNCOCKING YOUR LEFT WRIST ON PLANE POINTING AT THE LINE.

So the #3 Accumulator basically is Turning and Rolling that #3 Accumulator Angle set between the club and the left arm when the left wrist is in its LEVEL impact condition. So just turn and roll while pointing the club at the plane line. AND you do all that while cocking and uncocking the left wrist.

Whew . . . any of that crap make sense? Are asleep yet?

Originally Posted by neil (Post 49164)

Bucket ,that is about your 3rd post that made any sense!

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket (Post 49158)

No problem dude . . . here's how all that looks . . . Fire away with any questions.

Originally Posted by Mike O (Post 49167)

I just wanted to know in the first sketch- Where are the golfer's legs? :golf:

Originally Posted by Mike O (Post 49167)

I just wanted to know in the first sketch- Where are the golfer's legs? :golf:

Originally Posted by mrodock (Post 49168)

Behind the circle aka paper colored pane of glass

Originally Posted by Mike O (Post 49170)

MRO DOCK- That's no fun! I guess Bucket is right - just one more lame azz post from Mike O!

Originally Posted by 3Putt (Post 49141)

I don't think I have missed the big picture. I extensively used the forums, videos, animations, etc prior to actually getting into the book proper. Many threads dealt with the "newbies" introduction to TGM so I think I entered with an appropriate mindset.

Back to the swing plane.....there are really 2 points I was hoping to make:

1) the book is not an easy read. And taken in isolation some points can appear conflicting (please tell me I am not the only one who thinks this!). So I am very curious to hear how others have dealt with this and not just given up. Absolutely correct in your assessment. Dealt with it? Ask questions until the answer makes sense.
2) Technically I am struggling with some geometry concepts (my incubator is actually overheating) of how the clubshaft can remain on plane AND the #3 accumulator can be maintained AND the chosen hinging can be maintained AND wrist cock can be done ALL AT THE SAME TIME.
Look at 2-N-1 - Held on plane by Clubhead Lag or Centrifugal Force- so that's how you do it procedureally. Mechanically- A) Look at the "Golfing Machine" 1-L Sketch- same thing is happening there. In the Human Body you have a lot more moving parts- bottom line if the clubhead moves down then something also has to make it go out and forward to keep it on plane in the golf swing.
I'm not looking for the magic bullet or the simplistic answer. I know I can work through it. I guess I am looking for some solidarity from others on this web site who hopefully can empathize and encourage me to get through the rough spots, and maybe provide a tip or two along the way.

Thanks again.