Originally Posted by alojoo (Post 38060)

I want to add a backswing point not too clear to the discussion:

On the dowswing, centrifugal force mantains the longitudinal mass gravity centre of the lever assembly (left arm, club), which is the sweetspot, on the same 2 dimensional (flat) circular trajectory. Especially in release, we can see the sweet spot staying on The Plane, or just staying moving in the same flat circular motion, while the lighter hands come closer to the body and near to the ground when rolling the wrists (with uncocked wrists, but plenty nº3 accumulator).

In the backswing(from address to end/top) rotating the shaft around the sweetspot and not viceversa is very difficult, and having the sweetpot as a "fixed or rotation fixed point/centre" reference point is very difficult. Here little centrifugal force can be generated. So when a turn in the left wrist is made, the club (shaft and club head) moves around the hands.

So when Homer Kelley was talking about "rotating the shaft around the sweetspot and not viceversa" maybe he is only adding this to the dowswing.

Because in the backswing it is better I think to have as reference point the hands moving with the same thrust' direction on the same plane and controlling the hands (rotating the clubhead/shaft around the hands). Because when you attempt to rotate your hands around the clubhead(club's sweetspot), rotate the hands (by turning action of the wrists) around a "sweetspot moving in a 2 dimensional angular motion(on the plane)", the club's sweetspot will be throwed out of plane (becomes 3 dimensional sweetspot's path) by not on plane forces that don't move in the same direction along the plane or flat circular trajectory. Not on plane forces such as cocking(when the left wrist cocking action is not on plane, i.e. when the left back of the hand is not facing/resting on the sweetspot plane), also turning/rolling with non zero nº3 accumulator is not an on plane force with the plane the sweetspot had previous to starting the turn/roll.

An experiment to illustrate this, hold a very light dowel and get with zero pivot on a position in the downswing when the right forearm is level to the ground. Point the dowel to your intended line of flight(to the ball), and then swing to impact very very very slowly. In the way down roll fast, snap rolling your wrist (but keep the hand's slow but even thrust) so at impact the imaginary clubface will be vertical to the intended line of flight. There you can see that the dowel rotated around the hands, the hands kept the same direction of motion (or in the same path), while the extreme of the dowel that would be the clubhead moved outward far beyond the line of flight, and the dowel missed the ball because the dowel moved away, and the hands mantained its position.

Incrementing the experiment's downswing velocity increases the centriugal force, and the effect "sweetspot/dowel impact zone becoming out of 2 dimensional plane, flat surface" is minimized. The backswing velocity is smaller in comparison to the velocity we can see at release.

Can you TGM's confirm if at the backswing you follow the sentence "rotate around the sweetspot", or do you turn the left wrist and move/rotate the clubhead around the hands, mantaining the hands in an ideal flat surface/plane and then when that is done, a little later you put the sweetspot on that same plane the hands are moving in.

Originally Posted by Martee (Post 38085)

Mike that is a nice visual, but if you were to use Kelley's Plane board, it doesn't work as written in chptr2.

Very simple, Kelley stating that the shaft remains on or against a flat plane and this concept creates two different planes that intersect at the grip, the sweetspot plane being the flatter.

I believe that chptr 2 is very problematic, Kelley needed more words and diagrams.

I know I sound like a broken record on this topic, but I have tried and tried and can not make his statements work as they are written. Something is missing, much like what is the reference point of the camera regarding CF in Kelley's descriptions.

I really believe that Kelley would not intentionally use a device or recommend a training aid that would contradict his intentions, the use of the plane board and the use of the park bench (drill) just doesn't support the plane being defined phyically by the sweetspot.

I will shut up now. (it has been almost a year since I argued these points):confused: ](*,)

Originally Posted by Martee (Post 38085)

I believe that chptr 2 is very problematic, Kelley needed more words and diagrams.

Originally Posted by YodasLuke (Post 38114)

:BangHead: :BangHead:

First of all, this thread is light-years away from "The Golfing Machine - Basic". That first post might run a newbie as far away from LBG as reading TGM would do. ;) More words and more diagrams meant more out of pocket $$$ for Homer.

But, as evidenced in Homer's earliest sketch of 1-L, he thought we could see all the things that he saw. He understood later that he needed to list those 21 things, since no one knew what he was talking about.

The quote worthy of your first tattoo:

“But herein, unless otherwise noted, "Plane Angle" and "Plane Line" always refer to the Center of Gravity application.”

The Sweet Spot moves in an orbit, on a plane. A plane board is a reasonable proximity, but does not allow the Sweet Spot to move in a straight line and is a total contradiction to the geometry and physics of the above quote. The challenge for anyone becomes this: create a plane board that utilizes the Center of Gravity application. :idea1: Good luck. Let me know when you’ve finished it, and I’ll buy one.

Originally Posted by EdZ (Post 38119)

A gyroscope built into a golf grip would do the trick to show the hands that plane.

Patent pending :)

Originally Posted by Martee (Post 38085)

Mike that is a nice visual, but if you were to use Kelley's Plane board, it doesn't work as written in chptr2.

Very simple, Kelley stating that the shaft remains on or against a flat plane and this concept creates two different planes that intersect at the grip, the sweetspot plane being the flatter.

I believe that chptr 2 is very problematic, Kelley needed more words and diagrams.

I know I sound like a broken record on this topic, but I have tried and tried and can not make his statements work as they are written. Something is missing, much like what is the reference point of the camera regarding CF in Kelley's descriptions.

I really believe that Kelley would not intentionally use a device or recommend a training aid that would contradict his intentions, the use of the plane board and the use of the park bench (drill) just doesn't support the plane being defined phyically by the sweetspot.

I will shut up now. (it has been almost a year since I argued these points):confused: ](*,)

Originally Posted by YodasLuke (Post 38128)

If this post doesn't move the thread to the lab, I've done all I can do.

I was thinking more of the shape of a cone. Imagine a golfer standing in a Plane. Now, imagine the plane of the base of the cone is placed on the golfer's Plane, with it's vertex extended somewhere out and in front of the golfer's face (above Plane).

If the Sweet Spot traveled in a perfect circle, a machine could be built. Because of the true elliptical shape of the Sweet Spot travel on the Plane (not a perfect circle), it cannot be a right (triangle) cone with a constant length of "s" (slant). It would have to be an elliptical cone, and therefore would create many problems in designing a machine to hold the Sweet Spot On-Plane, acting as a Plane board substitute.

1. With "s" being of different lengths in this elliptical cone, a machine with a fixed vertex would have to have an "s" that telescopes in length. How would it know when to lengthen and shorten? If done incorrectly, you would add the third dimension to the plane (bad news/bending of the Plane).

2. If "s" was a fixed length, the vertex would have to telescope toward and away from the Plane. How would the vertex know when to move to or fro. Problems, problems, problems.

3. Or, use a plane board, and get the best representation of the Plane known to man.

Originally Posted by golfbulldog (Post 38136)

When the club is "turned to the plane" - are the sweetspot and shaft planes the same?