Yes agreed. You are more correct on this point.

Can't we just say "shaft" and everyone agree that we're talking about the Long Cntr of grav of the Club. Unless we're talking about getting our shafts re-gripped.

I asked you not to tell me that!
 

HB, re smaller: One word can imply quite a bit and save this idiot a lot of writing time.


IMO, the book assumes 90 degrees for clarity , brevity reasons in that it assumes one grip type . But Homer does define other grip types and their implications to wrist action. Hence my "smaller" . I personally have the wedges at about 90 degrees , (never measured em) but when writing I didnt want to exclude the stronger Left Hand Grip dudes with their (approaching) Single Wrist Action. Some have Turned their Left Hand all the way to Plane in their grip , at Fix even. IMO these stronger left hand grip types guys do not have their wedges at 90 degrees. But Im open for ideas on this.

Also if I may enter the Lab for a moment, even with a more neutral grip in common golf speak there is something else to consider: namely the effect on the nature of the left hand grip and wrist action and the relationship of the two wedges to each other, in degrees if you must , of positioning the ball back in the stance.

Lemme explain what Im thinking. We grip the club with the club in its FIX position. Not at low point or where ever . Now for balls played back in the stance , prior to forming the grip, the clubhead moves back along the Arc of Approach. AND THE HANDS MOVE BACK ALONG THEIR THREE DIMENSIONAL PATH TOO . If only slightly . As the left hand moves back , in, up it must Turn slightly. This is all prior to forming the grip. You dont form the grip at low point fix or some arbitrary place and then take the hands and clubhead back to where the ball actuallly is . You dont do this and then ROLL THE LEFT HAND AND GRIP WITH THE GRIP ALREADY FORMED TO SQUARE THE FACE TO THE TARGET . Some people do this , the
grip is precision alignment. Which demands precision. You dont form your grip vis a vis some lines on the rubber BTW arent those formed grip things are actually only correct for one ball position? Theoretically.

If you subscribe to this turning of the left hand grip, minute though it is ,as the ball placement moves back in the stance, then the wedges are not at 90 degrees to each other anymore and the Hand Action becomes more , er approaches a more Single Actiony action. I think. Please discuss. Mike O . whats your 20? Over. That is to say there is less turning required to get the left hand on plane , less Startup Swivel if you will for the shorter sticks , for balls played back of Straight Away.

Add Homer's Grip Rotation into this business and it would make for a nice little thread on how to adjust your machine for specific ball response . This relates to yodas recent post about Plane Line Rotation as (over) reco'd by some Trackman guys. Ive got a buddy who reps Flightscope we're supposed to get together and talk about all this. He's TGM literate so itll be interesting. Maybe Im making some wrong assumptions. I dunno. Im fascinated by the data these guys are looking at and the different ways to adjust the machine or dynamically change the path .

This is something we've never really gotten into . Homers ball flight stuff. Its all over the place in the book . What else is new you you say? Itd be nice to pull it together in a thread . Bucket started to but got jumped by a angry mob of visitors. Hopefully times have changed and those guys have gotten bored with us.

"And ...... loving it". "Max the cone of silence hasnt worked in three weeks". Happy Holidays LBG.

Crash-bang: Applying FATS in a Swing is OK as long as it isn't applied in the wrong place on the shaft. In fact, all Swings require it or the Pivot couldn't move the club. You're mistakenly thinking that pulling just means pulling longitudinally on the shaft.

When Hogan "slots" the shaft, the hand pressure is downward and perpendicular to the plane of the left wrist. He flattens the shaft and whirls through impact, keeping his hands moving in an ever tightening curved path around his body rather than letting the pivot throw them away from the body down the line as in a cf Swing.

Holy cow - Just what do you think the lag pressure at PP#3 is anyway? The genius of HK tells us that it's the proxy for the Sweetspot and enables us to forget the real Sweetspot which is impossible to precisely monitor. How do you think Hand Controlled Pivots are achieved anyway? I'm beginning to see now that you are a Pivot Controlled Hands Swinger, who's looking for some magical protractor to give you more precision! #-o

Nonsense, bye
Hb

Yes, I am "mistakenly" thinking that pulling means just pulling.

:rolleyes:

This is such a great post I can't resist commenting but I didn't want to copy the entire post because there is a limit to storage space.

Just so we agree, because the Terms are really confusing. "Turn and Roll" describe the Primary Lever, using a Vertical Left Wrist, moving away from (backstroke) or toward (forward) Low-Point. So Turning is the Primary Lever moving "Away" and the Clubface "Opens" and Rolling is moving toward Low-Point and the Clubface "Closes". For the life of me, I have no idea why HK would use these terms. Swiveling occurs when the Clubface (Left Wrist) changes from Vertical to On-Plane and back to Vertical again.

90 Degree Wedges. If your Left Wrist is Vertical at Low-Point and your Right Forearm Wedge is On-Plane, then the Wedges are at 90 degrees.

Here's where we differ; I think. My opinion is that the Wedges should remain at 90 degrees regardless of Ball Location (its ok if they're not if you prefer it that way). If you play the ball back 6 inches, then, at Impact, the Primary Lever will be Closed but Rolling. It will also be Swiveled and will be Swiveling toward Vertical which it will be when it arrives at Low Point. For the Clubface to be square to the Angle of Approach at Impact, you will need to rotate the grip of the club in your Hands. So at Impact, the Hands will be moving exactly as they would (but on a steeper plane) if the Impact were going to be at Low-Point.

I need to make a "Fine Point". It's pretty advanced but I think everyone can handle it and not lose sleep tonight. "Swiveling" and "Turn and Roll" are not opposites nor are they related. "Turn and Roll" is one concept, separate. "Swiveling and "Hinging" are related. They are Two different ways that the Clubface moves through the impact interval. Hitters Only Hinge. Swingers use a Hinge and Swivel but its not a Hand Swivel. Swingers use a "Release Swivel" whereby as the Hands move down Plane during the Pulley, the Clubface moves from On Plane to Vertical at Low Point. This Swivel is compatible with Hinging whereas Hand Swivels are not.

There is a substantial group of articles by Kelvin Miyahira
that have some great pictures. If, for no other reason, the pix alone are their review.

hb

Thanks D.

Id personally would just say Left Hand above.

The clubface given what Homer termed Grip Rotation may or may not align to plane at Top , may or may not be vertical at Low Point. May or may not be parallel to the left arm at the top of the backswing as is commonly held. But ideally the Left Hand lays flat to plane at top. My right palm lays flat to the bottom of the plane too. But I have a vertical/vertical grip type. As I assume you must.