burner, please.

the discussion was about the most powerful swings, not putting, but if i needed to add some "OOMPH" to a really long putt, i'd move the hips...on the rest i'll defer to the yellow book where both 12-1-0 and 12-2-0 list "Delayed Hip Action" (10-15-B) which says:

"The Hips then take over and lead and power the Downstroke Shoulder Turn."

and

"...set the stage perfectly for the Hips to initiate the Downstroke Shouder Acceleration."


-hcw

HCW,

I use my right forearm to start the downswing....my hips react to that action making them appear to be moving first....at a full speed swing, the untrained eye can't tell the difference....


DG

dg,
having never had the pleasure of meeting mr. kelley nor having any "GSE" degree i may be going where angels fear to tread but i'll tak a shot and please feel free to correct me if you feel i go astray...i think homer is saying that if you have your elbow in front of your hip then you can get it and the hands further forward before release occurs for any given motion of the hips.

-hcw

DG,
fair enough, but then one also wouldn't be able to tell the difference if you started with the hips, true?...what i'm saying is that given a skilled operator (ie the long distance guys lagster started out talking about) i think hips first will give higher acceleration than forearm first...not necessarily better golf, just higher acceleration and longer distance...

-hcw

hcw,

Great job on these posts! Bottom line is that Pivot Lag is very important in powerful shots. Pivot Lag cannot be FULLY realized as a lower body reaction to upper body movements. You can unwind the shoulders and sling the left arm and get SOME Pivot Lag, but the ultimate is obtained by the hips preceding the shoulders. The most powerful tour players wear steel spikes and twist the hips against the ground.

Just a comment regarding the spikes and the body.

VJ wears softspikes. Last year in one of the tournments, his ball came to rest on the cart path. He took a mid iron (don't remember which one, might have been a 5, he was out about 190 yds or so) and played it as it lied. The announcer pointed out that if he had tried that with steel spikes he would have never been able to do it. Oh, it landed on the green after crossing over the trees and he made a birdie. The announcers originally didn't give him much of a chance on the shot.

Sam Snead, not to shabby of a ball striker, could hit the ball and did in fact play bare foot in practice, out there with the best of them.

The spikes are to help the golfer maintain position and balance. It is not the force up from the ground that is disrupting the position and balance but the the force down, from the shoulders, hips, etc.

There have been numerious golfers who demonstrate hitting golf balls while on thier knees, sitting down, etc.

The body rotation while trying to maintain balance is the key here. That is what the spikes do.

You want to become a better ball striker, practice barefoot or with flat spikeless shoes on. You might be surprised what you can learn about your golf swing and how to harness your bodies motion during the golf swing to maintain position, ALIGNMENTS and BALANCE.

Mr. Kelley thought a Stationary Head was an essential but could be substituted with the shoulders/spine center.

One could make the arguement that spikes help when the ground is not dired, one could make the arguement that on hardpan a golfer might be better off to remove the spikes.

Spikes can reduce power leakage, but the power is not generated from spikes.

That which has rotated to the right on the backswing - in order only to allow the correct positioning of the arms/club at the top - HAS to rotate, or clear, to the left in order for the arms to bring the club down out and through the ball with force generated by the arms.

Spikes are worn to allow the player maximum purchase on the ground where resistance to the downswing force is at its greatest; NOT as some sort of aid to phantom power generation.

Consider, === as the hip plane and / as the clubshaft plane and then explain how the horizontal plane, rotary, shifting of the former can initiate the inclined plane downward motion of the latter.

Burner,

You may have difficulty finding a rear-wheel-drive car that you would want to buy. :)

The rotation of the lower body does 2 things. One, it moves the tailbone closer to the target at impatc than at address (with open hips). This allows continuation of axis tilting and a longer straight line delivery path than otherwise possible. Two, drives torso rotation. The body has to bend to accomodate the rotation of the hips, maintain a steady head and allow translation of lower body turn into torso rotation. This provides momentum to be transferred (in a more correct plane) to the club via throwout during release.

Golfie

I think the point being made about the arms initiating is that the anticipation of the movement of the arms and hands causes the body to "respond". The body can anticipate the movement of the hands and arms and "respond" to them, but still "lead" by moving first. The key isn't whether the arms or pivot move first...the pivot obviously does in all golf strokes. The key is whether you have to think about it or not. Do you think about it when throwing a ball? If you were being attacked by a bear, would you think about it when trying to hit it with a bat and fight it away, or would you try to "throw" the bat into it as hard as possible?

Martee/Burner,

Here's what a couple of pretty good players think.

Hogan - "THE HIPS INITIATE THE DOWNSWING. Starting them first and moving them correctly -- this one action practically MAKES the downswing. It CREATES early speed."

Nicklaus - "The first move down is the replanting of the left heel, which starts a chain reaction upward through the body--it pulls the left knee toward the target, which pulls the right knee toward the target, which pulls the hips around and in turn the torso, shoulders, arms, hands, and club."

Nicklaus - "I get my power from my legs."