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Quote:

Originally Posted by brianmanzella

These are my (Brian Manzella) answers to the above questions.

This debate needs some closure and the best way for that—in my opinion—is a review.

What better way to start a review than to state your case—one more time—to the readers.

Where should the HEAD be at address?
In general, I position the golfer to be tilted from the hips enough to get the belt line close to pointing at the ball. I then create what I call “golf arms”: slightly inward rotation with the right forearm on plane. I guess I am setting the wedges, but to be honest, I prefer Standard Address for most players, so the left arm wedge is really not ‘set.’ From there the right hand being lower on the club takes care of any slight axis tilt.

I then place the ball in whatever ball position I am using for that golfer, and wherever that ‘puts’ the head, that’s where I leave it.

I never, ever put the head some place, just to have it there.

Do you teach whatever that is, the same to everyone?
No.

Do you make any exceptions?
For someone needing help to get to the inside-aft quadrant for whatever reason, I position the tailbone a bit closer to the target and then the head slightly to the right to maintain the same ‘balance.’

For the golfer needing to swinging to far to the right, I position them slightly the other way.

These are not absolutes though. I’ll create an address that helps the player with the pattern, like pre-turned hips, etc.

What should the HEAD do during the swing?
It should move as little as possible. But I really don’t want the base of the neck to move at all.

Do you teach whatever that is, the same to everyone?
Nope.

Do you make any exceptions?
All the time.

First, slicers have—in general—horrible pivots. Their head moves forward and tilts left, the hips slide way right, the shoulders turn way to steep. Once I fix the clubface, they now have a new need, to hit the inside-aft quadrant. To get them to do this, I fix the address position and then observe their ‘new’ pivots. It will often still need lots of work. This work requires—almost always—a more Standard Hip Turn, and a Flatter Shoulder Turn. If they STILL can’t make a backswing pivot that allows for them to come right down plane, I get them to turn around their spine, which 99% of the time, requires some head movement to the right on the backswing—but next to ZERO base of the neck movement. A classic shoulder turn takeaway, you might want to call it.

Hookers almost always need the opposite, they really to turn less and less flat. They have developed those problems trying to swing more out to right field, to “play” their hook. These golfers need the clubface/leakage issues addressed, but often I will fix the plane line first. This process is always sped up by creating less axis tilt, more forward ball position and the resultant more centered head.
These golfers need a steeper shoulder turn, less hip turn, etc. and they are almost always helped by a right forearm pickup, delayed hip turn, and less axis tilt on the downstroke.

Again, these are not absolutes at all, just generalities. I ALWAYS let the imperatives dictate the components and all the parts of the pattern.

curious to know Lynn and Ted's response.

U-Boats Surfacing In The Affluent Convoy

Quote:

Originally Posted by DD639

curious to know Lynn and Ted's response.

[For those who may not know, DD639 is a site admin on Brian's website.]

Please pardon Ted and I for not jumping through our assigned hoops. We are too busy cowering under this murderous assault of 'friendly fire.' :rolleyes:

Is it any wonder that TGM has such problems from the 'outside' when there is such dysfunction and professional jealously on the 'inside?'

The Not-So-Great Debate

Quote:

Originally Posted by brianmanzella

This debate needs some closure and the best way for that—in my opinion—is a review.

This thread was not started as a debate. It was started to illustrate a fundamental truth: the Pivot needs some fixed point acting as a Swing Center. I stated that position clearly in my post #10, well before Brian made any appearance in the thread. That post read:

"Actually, Homer is saying that something at the upper end of the Pivot -- not necessarily the Head -- must remain Stationary to stabilize the motion. He recommended the Head as the Pivot Center because you can tell when it moves (you can see more 'under' the Ball). However, you can alternatively choose to keep the top of the spine -- the point 'between the shoulders' -- stationary. Either way, there is no Sway. In both cases, there is a Centered Pivot Motion. It is all a matter of what the player monitors."

What has Brian said that runs counter to that thesis? Nothing. In fact, he has been in complete agreement. To have a 'debate' there must be an opposing argument. Here we have none. Hence, ipso facto, no debate.

What we do have is one man's attempt to establish who is 'best.' To differentiate and 'brand' -- his word -- himself as Golf's 'Mr. Fix-It' versus Lynn and Ted as self-constrained 'Homer's Own.'

Works for me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoda

Lynn,

What's up man??? I re-post Brian's post and you ATTACK ME. I am just curious as to your response as I am sure a lot of others are.

Last time I asked you a question you went off on me. I then called you on the phone and we had a nice talk. Right or Wrong?

You said you understood what happened, that it was a misunderstanding. Right or Wrong?

Now I re-post something and you are coming after me again.

I'm not mad at YOU, why are you doing this to ME???

Others on this thread have re-posted and wanted more response or debate and you didn't REPLY OR ATTACK them.

People are now asking you to "jump through hoops when they ask you a question?
That's it no more questions on Lynn's site.

Professional Jealousy... WHAT??? I have nothing to be Jealous about.

Dysfunction??? Now I think you are just trying to be funny right? Because, you certainly aren't serious I hope?

I'll try this again...Could you please respond to Brian's post?
I would like to know the answer.

Thank You Very Much,
Tom Bartlett
Or as Lynn says "site administrator on Brian's site"

The Message And The Messenger

Quote:

Originally Posted by DD639

Lynn,

Last time I asked you a question you went off on me. I then called you on the phone and we had a nice talk. Right or Wrong?

You said you understood what happened, that it was a misunderstanding. Right or Wrong?

There is innuendo...and there is fact.

Innuendo: Your quote above.

Fact: You returned my call.

Fact: Yes, I understood your explanation -- for an ill choice of the words 'ulterior motive' in describing my suggestion of a senior AI review of the pending 7th edition of TGM -- and I accepted your genuinely-extended apology.

If I have misinterpreted your 'curiosity' in this latest instance, I stand corrected and offer my own apology. But, to me it sounded very much like, "The gauntlet has been thrown, let's see you guys pick it up."

Still does, as a matter of fact.

Lynn,

I just produced an hour long audio, that would really help people to see what has really happened in this thread.

Spin is spin, but, trust me, this thread makes more of my points than you would like to admit.

If you wish, I'll post it. But, I think, that if you answered the questions that I did above, at least people could see what you guys are really saying.

Your call.

I don't think I'm learning much of anything from this thread irregardless of either side is right, wrong or agreeing.

It just two things apparent to me - (1) that TGM will never be mainstream for a reason and (2) maybe I should just give up on TGM altogether and not even strive for improvement

Quote:

Originally Posted by brianmanzella

The thread topic was the Centered Pivot as performed by the majority of history's great champions versus the Non-Centered Pivot espoused in much of today's conventional instruction. My only 'point' was -- and is -- that the Centered Pivot as taught by Homer Kelley is correct. That is, the Pivot needs a Center and that Center can be either the Head or the 'spine between the shoulders.' You not only have agreed with that thesis, you have stated that, indeed, you teach both Centers. Inexplicably, though there has been no disagreement, conflict continues for the sole reason that you seem bound and determined to create it.

Regarding what I am "really saying," I today went over the 2,500-post mark. Most of those were detailed explanations and interpretations of Homer Kelley's work. That number does not include the more than 1,500 private messages I've responded to in the past year. In addition, I've put up a substantial amount of video that is readily available without charge. I submit that is more than enough material for our members to identify "what you guys are really saying."

However, this is an open forum, and you are welcome to post your audio to give others the help you apparently think they need to determine "what has really happened in this thread." One caveat: If you use the podium to misrepresent what I teach or to attack either Ted Fort or me personally, it will come down. Why? Because posting here is a privilege to be enjoyed by those who respect Golf as a gentleman's game and not as a street brawl.

Bobby Jones wrote:

"It is of the very essence of golf that it should be played in a completely sociable atmosphere conducive to the utmost in courtesy and consideration of one player for the others, and upon the very highest level in matters of sportsmanship, observance of the rules, and fair play."

This was the way Mr. Jones felt about the game of golf.

This is the way I feel about the Forum interactions on our site.

Knock, Knock...Anybody Home?

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikestloc

Because God knows that all the other methods, systems, and "ways to do it" have no internal bickering or debate over their doxology....

:)

Welcome, mikestloc, Brian Manzella site admin #2. Hey guys, who's minding the store? :D

I will debate where there is a worthwhile point of argument. So far in this thread, there has been none. I will not engage in conflict for its own sake -- and thus far there has been plenty -- especially when it has been deliberately created to serve a regularly proclaimed personal agenda.

Lynn Blake,

(this is a yes or no question)

Do you teach the following to all new students:

Pivot Tripod Center with the head precisely between the feet at address and steady through the follow-through?