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-   -   Physics (http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=265)

hcw 02-17-2005 02:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trigolt
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdZ
There is a difference between clubhead lag, and true lag 'pressure'.

Brian's shopping cart image is the best way to describe the difference. (see article on his site).


In a nutshell, if you ran downhill pushing a shopping cart, lag 'pressure' is maintained by continuing to run faster than the cart - you are still providing a push - providing support.

Now, you could run with the cart, and keep up with it, but not be ADDING any pressure - it would look like you are pushing it, but really you are just 'moving at the same pace'.




Don't confuse clubhead lag (moving at the same pace, keeping that clubhead trailing) - with lag pressure (adding 'push' - adding support).

In other words, if you can't keep up the speed to 'push the cart', you are going TOO FAST.

Remember - slow and heavy, feel PP#3

As soon as you give up lag pressure, you give up mass - you are 'bouncing' the club off impact, rather than 'supporting'.

This is true, hitting or swinging IMO, although you will feel it more directly in hitting.

Good post. Ok, futher exploring this....

Are you saying then, a clubhead moving at 100mph with no support behind it will not hit the ball as far as a clubhead traveling 100mph with support behind it? Support being - the club attached to a golfer who is maintaining lag pressure thoughout the swing.

i would say that if you are running faster than the cart and pushing it then you are accelerating the cart, if you are just keeping up with it you are not...same with the 100 mph clubhead, if you are pushing it to 100 mph, then you are still accelerating it, not just keeping up with it and it is the acceleration that is your "effective mass" and would cause the ball to go further

-hcw

MizunoJoe 02-17-2005 07:47 AM
"Are you saying then, a clubhead moving at 100mph with no support behind it will not hit the ball as far as a clubhead traveling 100mph with support behind it? Support being - the club attached to a golfer who is maintaining lag pressure thoughout the swing."

The answer is yes, but in a Swing using CF, the amount of support needed is only that from the left hand required to keep the butt of the club from backing up in the Impact Interval. Lag Pressure at PP #3 is only a passive feedback indicating that your Left Wrist is moving fast enough.

EdZ 02-17-2005 10:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trigolt
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdZ
Yes. Any amount of lag pressure represents mass, and any amount of mass will send the ball further than without that mass.

The kicker is that to get there, most people have to slow way down.

To feel like they are swinging 'in slow motion'.

Full swings, half tempo - 160 club to 100 yards

HEAVY club - driving downplane to both arms straight.

Taking a divot.

Split grip drills will let you feel both arms straight properly.
Aha! So that is what Yoda meant when he told me increasing the "effective mass" is critical.

It makes sense to me, especially after thinking through the physics of it.

Good thread!

By the way, how does it help to hit your 160yd club 100yds? And how do you turn around and apply it to a full shot?
It helps because it is easier to get the sequence (lag pressure) properly, gravity can help show you 'effortless power'. What it actually does best is get the hands and 'center' moving through impact together - a 'result' that all good swings have. Ballards 'connection', but without 'trying'.

It is also a very effective way to check that the club is really 'swinging' and that you are totally balanced - hold your finish until the ball stops moving. Even if you are a hitter, the club must 'swing'.

Keeping the spoke straight from 'center' to PP1, extensor action is helpful here.

12 piece bucket 02-24-2005 11:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdZ
There is a difference between clubhead lag, and true lag 'pressure'.

Brian's shopping cart image is the best way to describe the difference. (see article on his site).


In a nutshell, if you ran downhill pushing a shopping cart, lag 'pressure' is maintained by continuing to run faster than the cart - you are still providing a push - providing support.

Now, you could run with the cart, and keep up with it, but not be ADDING any pressure - it would look like you are pushing it, but really you are just 'moving at the same pace'.

Don't confuse clubhead lag (moving at the same pace, keeping that clubhead trailing) - with lag pressure (adding 'push' - adding support).

In other words, if you can't keep up the speed to 'push the cart', you are going TOO FAST.

Remember - slow and heavy, feel PP#3

As soon as you give up lag pressure, you give up mass - you are 'bouncing' the club off impact, rather than 'supporting'.

This is true, hitting or swinging IMO, although you will feel it more directly in hitting.
Nice post!

12 piece bucket 02-24-2005 11:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MizunoJoe
Clubhead Lag is the clubhead trailing a bent shaft. Accumulator Lag is the amount of the Accumulator that has yet to be unloaded.
Good post! MJ, I know that you are a big fan of Trigger Delay and Snap Release. Do you think Accumulator Lag automatically translates to Clubhead Lag? Are the proportional in some way assuming no throw-away?

Did you see the pics of C. Howell in Golf Magazine? Looks like he's moved away from Lead's attempts to "de-Lag" him . . . assuming the pics weren't taken pre-Lead. There are couple of incredible pics. He seems to be the poster-boy for #3 Lag.

Thanks!

Richard

MizunoJoe 02-24-2005 02:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket
Quote:
Originally Posted by MizunoJoe
Clubhead Lag is the clubhead trailing a bent shaft. Accumulator Lag is the amount of the Accumulator that has yet to be unloaded.
Good post! MJ, I know that you are a big fan of Trigger Delay and Snap Release. Do you think Accumulator Lag automatically translates to Clubhead Lag? Are the proportional in some way assuming no throw-away?

Did you see the pics of C. Howell in Golf Magazine? Looks like he's moved away from Lead's attempts to "de-Lag" him . . . assuming the pics weren't taken pre-Lead. There are couple of incredible pics. He seems to be the poster-boy for #3 Lag.



Thanks!



Richard
I haven't seen the Golf Mag pics, but will take a look at the mag rack tonight. I assume you meant to say he is a poster boy for #2 Lag. You must have Clubhead Lag to provide a stressed shaft before Impact, in order to resist the ball collision and maximize Separation speed.

Even if you maintain LW Cock deep into a late Release, if LW speed is too slow in the pulley section, you can lose Clubhead Lag and hit the ball with an unstressed shaft. It feels like hitting a rock vs hitting a dandelion.

12 piece bucket 02-24-2005 02:36 PM
Can the tortoise beat the hare?
 
MJ,

Duh. Correct #2 Lag. Check out the magazine. I know CH is your boy. There are some very good pictures. You can see the #2 Lag as well as the stressed Clubshaft. You will like the pics.

If we assume that a big guy Drive Loading like Stads hits it the same distance as CH (which may not be a good assumption), are the both generating the same amount of "stress" or "load" in the shaft? I guess one via Mass and the other via Velocity? Or is stressing the shaft one thing and clubhead speed another both translating into distance in a different way?

Thanks!

R

MizunoJoe 02-25-2005 08:41 AM
Depends on how slow the hare is.
 
12p,

I don't believe a Hitter can approach the distances of the longer Swingers like Woods, Kuehne, etc. Even if the Hitter gets the highest possible Separation Velocity of 80% of Impact Velo because of the steady thrust, the 125+ Impact Velos of the Swingers are too much to overcome.

12 piece bucket 02-25-2005 11:31 AM
Re: Depends on how slow the hare is.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MizunoJoe
12p,

I don't believe a Hitter can approach the distances of the longer Swingers like Woods, Kuehne, etc. Even if the Hitter gets the highest possible Separation Velocity of 80% of Impact Velo because of the steady thrust, the 125+ Impact Velos of the Swingers are too much to overcome.
Gotcha. Is this greater velocity due to more Trigger delay in combination with CF? Do you swing exclusively? Just curious. I have a lot of respect for you opinions and knowledge. I'm hitting mostly now, but prior to TGM I was exclusively an undiagnosed Swinger.

lagster 02-25-2005 11:47 AM
Maybe enough MASS for now! We started this thread with Mass. Now on to other factors.

ENERGY: the capacity to do WORK
WORK: changing the state of something (FORCExDISTANCE)
FORCE: The cause, or agent, that puts an object at rest into motion or alters the motion of a moving object. (Webster) FORCE=MASSxACCELERATION
ACCELERATION: The rate of change in the Velocity of a moving object.(Webster)
A=DISTANCE divided by TIME squared

WHERE IN THE SWING DO THE LONGEST HITTERS HAVE THE GREATEST ACCELERATION? How do they accomplish this?


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