Holding a club with an inert left arm and loose left wrist, then gripping your left forearm with your right hand, and using your right arm to pull your left arm back (while turning it ala standard wrist action) and then push it through, would you be swinging or hitting?
p.235 is missing in all of my editions.....I need to borrow someone elses ...so I can get caught up to speed....thanks....I know for a fact ..I don't have the right answers.....LOL...
Holding a club with an inert left arm and loose left wrist, then gripping your left forearm with your right hand, and using your right arm to pull your left arm back (while turning it ala standard wrist action) and then push it through, would you be swinging or hitting?
Chris
Chris,
Checkout Tom Tomasello's "Power" video from the Australia video chapter series. I believe you will find your answer there...
I don't understand your posts. And I don't understand the way TGM describes pulling in a golf stroke or centrifugal force in a golf stroke. I know that muscles can only pull on bones so I guess all strokes could be said to originate from lots of pulling, yet the only way to move an object that is inert in a straight line without that object spinning or cantilevering (pressuring or supporting one end of a beam or object more than the other) is to apply a direct linear force to the rear COG point in exactly the direction you would like the object to go. Hitting is using right arm thrust to push against the rear of the inert left fist through impact while Swinging uses the flyweeling spine to push against the rear of the upper part of the inert humerus bone. Cantilevering is minimal in both because of the structural integrity of the left arm in one case and it's attachment to a large fluid object at the other end in the other case. The Left Arm in Hitters or Swingers - who use anything resembling angled to horizontal hinge action - receives a push on both ends of the left arm through impact. Which push is more forceful or active as Homer Kelley would say determines the diametrically opposed difference between the two. However I think sophisticated equipment measuring muscle innervations would find that the right pec major, right subscapularis, right triceps, and both lat muscles strongly contract to accelerate the arms during a good Swing's downswing and the right external oblique and left internal oblique muscles contract to rotate the pelvis and torso during a good Hit's downswing. A Hit within a Swing and a Swing within a Hit. Perhaps the true push stroke as opposed to the pitch or punch is the only stroke that the upper left arm doesn't recieve a push from the rear by the flywheel.
As for centrifugal force, it doesn't exist. All human motion and anything attached to humans during human motions - like a golf club - are governed by the laws of angular momentum and the conservation of angular momentum. Whether Swinging or Hitting the clubhead is pulled into a circular orbit via the centripetal force caused by its attachment to something else that is rotating about a center. The fact that it doesn't want to be pulled into that orbit creates an opposing force that can stretch the clubhead as far away from the center as possible if there is any stretch in the connective tissue.
As for pushing versus pulling: In most scenarios that involve force production to move an object, pushing is favored since more mass can be behind the object being moved. But we often call pushing pulling instead. A speed boat doesn't pull a skier, the propeller creates thrust to push against water to propel the boat forward; the skier just happens to be part of the boat that is on the opposite side of the push and creates a drag on the whole system. A skier actually has to lean back and create a push against the water as well just to stay up. If he veers to one side of the boat or vice versa, he has to lean back and push even harder against water more and more as he gets pulled into a circular orbit by centripetal force and his mph increases. I could go on and on; horses push their legs into the earth to push into the harness in front of them to move the carriage behind them. Tug of war teams that win don't pull harder, they push into the ground harder. Even oarsmen push feet into extreme friction leaning all their mass way behind that friction in order to push water in the opposite direction that they want the boat to go. The man or woman who is behind a golf ball and applying pressure to the rear of a lever that is striking it is pushing behind the lever with his pulling muscles and pushing into the earth with his pulling muscles. If he is doing that then he has a chance to max out the force that he can push into the ball.
I don't understand your posts. And I don't understand the way TGM describes pulling in a golf stroke or centrifugal force in a golf stroke. I know that muscles can only pull on bones so I guess all strokes could be said to originate from lots of pulling, yet the only way to move an object that is inert in a straight line without that object spinning or cantilevering (pressuring or supporting one end of a beam or object more than the other) is to apply a direct linear force to the rear COG point in exactly the direction you would like the object to go. Hitting is using right arm thrust to push against the rear of the inert left fist through impact while Swinging uses the flyweeling spine to push against the rear of the upper part of the inert humerus bone. Cantilevering is minimal in both because of the structural integrity of the left arm in one case and it's attachment to a large fluid object at the other end in the other case. The Left Arm in Hitters or Swingers - who use anything resembling angled to horizontal hinge action - receives a push on both ends of the left arm through impact. Which push is more forceful or active as Homer Kelley would say determines the diametrically opposed difference between the two. However I think sophisticated equipment measuring muscle innervations would find that the right pec major, right subscapularis, right triceps, and both lat muscles strongly contract to accelerate the arms during a good Swing's downswing and the right external oblique and left internal oblique muscles contract to rotate the pelvis and torso during a good Hit's downswing. A Hit within a Swing and a Swing within a Hit. Perhaps the true push stroke as opposed to the pitch or punch is the only stroke that the upper left arm doesn't recieve a push from the rear by the flywheel.
As for centrifugal force, it doesn't exist. All human motion and anything attached to humans during human motions - like a golf club - are governed by the laws of angular momentum and the conservation of angular momentum. Whether Swinging or Hitting the clubhead is pulled into a circular orbit via the centripetal force caused by its attachment to something else that is rotating about a center. The fact that it doesn't want to be pulled into that orbit creates an opposing force that can stretch the clubhead as far away from the center as possible if there is any stretch in the connective tissue.
As for pushing versus pulling: In most scenarios that involve force production to move an object, pushing is favored since more mass can be behind the object being moved. But we often call pushing pulling instead. A speed boat doesn't pull a skier, the propeller creates thrust to push against water to propel the boat forward; the skier just happens to be part of the boat that is on the opposite side of the push and creates a drag on the whole system. A skier actually has to lean back and create a push against the water as well just to stay up. If he veers to one side of the boat or vice versa, he has to lean back and push even harder against water more and more as he gets pulled into a circular orbit by centripetal force and his mph increases. I could go on and on; horses push their legs into the earth to push into the harness in front of them to move the carriage behind them. Tug of war teams that win don't pull harder, they push into the ground harder. Even oarsmen push feet into extreme friction leaning all their mass way behind that friction in order to push water in the opposite direction that they want the boat to go. The man or woman who is behind a golf ball and applying pressure to the rear of a lever that is striking it is pushing behind the lever with his pulling muscles and pushing into the earth with his pulling muscles. If he is doing that then he has a chance to max out the force that he can push into the ball.
For starters, I think someone needs to remove the two words beneath Coophitter's name from Junior Member to Subject Matter Expert. Fassssttttt....
I don't have the luxury of verifying IP addresses- but I'll bet my right arm that it's - Immanuel Kant - posting. In fact, make that my right arm and my left arm!
I only say that because "perfectimpact" used the same horse and speed boat analogy a few days ago over at the GEA forums.
So it seems that what Coophitter is saying is that everything comes down at some point to leverage, whether there is pushing or pulling, it all comes back to leverage. Otherwise, there would never be any way to effectively "pull" anything without the leverage provided by a "push."
Well spoken RWH. A rose by any other name would still smell as sweet or something like that. But I still observe such friendly debate among TGM students and AIs concerning the inherent meaning attached to so many of Mr. Kelley's words. For example, your words explain the essential passivity of the right arm during the release interval in Swinging versus the conscious deliberate muscular triceps thrust during Hitting's release interval. But I read in TGM and often hear from students and instructors that extensor action is ever present in the Swinging and Hitting procedures. In other words the right triceps is always trying to straighten the right arm in Swinging. That doesn't sound like a very passive right triceps. Is it just that Hitting's triceps activity is conscious and deliberate while in Swinging you don't know it's going on? I never knew I was a Hitter until George Kelnhofer told me I was.
Here is what I truly believe about the execution of golf strokes and it comes from my university physiology notes and related studies. I can't remember the textbooks I was studying at the time so I can't credit my references. These are certainly not my original thoughts however:
Although the whole musculoskeletal system is complex, the basic mechanics that create movement are quite simple. A muscle can only do two things; it can contract or it can relax. By attaching two bones over an articulating joint, when a muscle contracts it pulls the bones together and movement takes place. When the muscle is relaxed it can be stretched by the contraction of other muscles which pull and create movement in the other direction.
The moving body should not be seen, however, as the individual action of separate muscles. The system works as a whole to develop patterns of muscular activity that together can create a huge range of smooth and controlled movements. These patterns not only enable us to to perform a wide variety of complex activities, but also to be able to do them efficiently and with minimal stress. In most activities, individual muscles and joints are rarely taken to their extreme limits. The body develops patterns of movement which share the effort between numerous parts of the system so no individual part should be overstressed. A great example of this is that when a person naturally rotates the right humerus laterally with a bending elbow and then medially rotates the humerus allowing the elbow to straighten, a similar simultaneous rotation of the spine in both directions usually occurs.
Apart from the brain and the central nervous system, the musculoskeletal system is the most versatile and creative system of the body. It is not possible to learn or know exactly how the body moves in all situations; the most we can try to do is understand it.
The emphasis on various ideals of human movement does not correspond with the design of the body. The functions of the brain are asymetrical and most manual or sports related movements require us to use our body in asymetrical ways based on dominant sidedness, physical and neurochemical imbalances, and the nature of the task at hand. Tomosello's right arm swing with horizontal hinging is designed to create a draw which is not ideal ballflight. If I don't let my torso synchronize and rotate to accomodate this stroke, I'll hook the ball. On uphill lies and above my feet lies I'll hook it with right arm swinging so I tighten my grip and use whatever degree of angled hinging I think appropriate. I'd say that on more than half my shots like these where hooking means trouble, I tighten my grip, have the face look at the ball longer on the backswing, shorten and speed up my backswing and throughswing, and then angle hinge to varying degrees through impact. Tomasello said this was the pure Hitting. I still try to let my torso in these cases do the rotation thing it wants to do in rhythmic response, so I'm not sure even this is pure Hitting.
When I tried to be a swinger in the Kelnhofer camp, I was often so concerned with torso rotation that I did't let my arms swing and the ball went right. I've never gotten the hang of a passive right arm so I always straighten it. Conversely, I've never succeeded when I've prevented my spine from rotating when I employ so called right arm swinging. I hook the ball.
This will probably be my last lengthy post unless y'all really want to know my background which is extensive and multidisciplinary since graduating from college.
I will tell you I chose to major in English and that is why I write as I speak and sometimes can't stop. Thanks for the kind words and I look forward to shorter more direct posts on my part in the future.
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