ea help
 

this is my first post. though i have been learning a lot from all on this site. thanks Lynn and to all that contribute.
my question is on extensor action. when i try to focus on EA it always seems to build tension into my game and i swing worse.
does this happen for anyone else, and how can i use EA without adding any extra tension into my swing?

I agree
 

planetracer, I agree.

I have never had good experience with EA. Now I just attempt to hold both arms extended without pushing against the left.

I find that I have a reaction of pushing back, when I concentrate on pushing agains the left I wind up pulling the left arm back.

I probably just don't understand EA in spite of the time I try to understand and use it.

I am reminded of the lesson I learned as a boy on the farm. If a cow steps on your toe don't push against the cow or it will just lean back and step on your foot harder. Thats what happens to me with EA.

The Bear

Extensor Action
 

OK, this is so simple it is going to hurt!:)

If you have a TGM book you can look this up.

Back to basics my friend. Study 1-L, in particular 1-L-6

1-L-6. The Clubshaft always points at the Plane Line except when they are parallel to each other.


Kevin

That's from Kevin Carter. Search Yoda's posts on EA and Impact Fix. Also RFT.

Trace the baseline of the plane! Use pp# 3 to pull the shaft as it traces. Then lift the left shoulder to reverse or roll the right shoulder to hit. Remember that your hinge positions are crucial.!

Patrick

There are a number of "ways" to get to the Top of the Backstroke. You can swing it, pull it, lag it and flip it. Who, in their right minds, would ever think to "Push it"?

EA Primer:

#3 PP:
If you apply pressure to the #3 Pressure Point without using EA, then you are throwing the Clubhead. If you use EA with the #3 Pressure Point, then you are controlling the Clubshaft.

#3 PP Tracing:
EA allows you to trace the Plane Line with the #3 PP. EA gives you real "FEEL" of both ends of the Grip. You can easily sense the Clubshaft On-Plane throughout the Swing.

Without EA, the #3 Pressure Point is a dot, or small point. This dot/point can be driven by the Pivot to the Ball or Aiming Point. It cannot trace the Plane Line because you need two points in your Grip to sense the On-Plane Shaft or Bar so that you can sense that the Bar is On Plane while the farthest end (#3 PP) traces the Plane Line.

Learning EA:
Find a short stick, say 12 inches (get a wooden spoon or anything, but you need to do this) and grip it with both hands. Squeeze the middle two fingers of your right hand to snug up the lifeline cup of your right hand on top of the thumb of your left hand. Add a little right triceps push down the direction of your left arm. Because you have a bent right arm, your hands are at or past your right side. Don't move your Head (not even an inch) or roundhouse your left shoulder (Never). Feel the Hands moving to the right and that your left shoulder is resisting.

With the 12 inch stick and a little EA Pressure, you can easily sense that the stick is On-Plane. Go back and forth just a few inches and keep sensing the On-Plane Stick. Get the stick on plane. Don't move your head, not even your nose. Do not allow the Left Shoulder to roundhouse. Your Left Shoulder should resist EA. This is probably a new sensation. Your Shoulders will Turn, but your left shoulder will go under, not around.

Do not move your arms with EA on the Downswing. EA force direction is only down the left arm. Using a sweep release with EA is a very advanced move. I wouldn't even try it for now. Your downswing should be a Pivot and shoulder turn with your power package fixed in the end position. Allow the right arm to straighten naturally through impact for now.

The Right Triceps pressure is the easy one to learn. The Right Shoulder is the difficult one. About a week or two or three and you'll have trained your right shoulder and brain connection and it won't "feel" odd or difficult anymore. Until then, it will feel like a struggle. It is a struggle. You need to train your brain and right shoulder. It's just a training thing. You don't need more muscle. Soon, the struggle will go away.


Your Immediate Goal:
Your three week goal with the stick, is to be able to sense the stick On-Plane and move your hands and stick using your right triceps and right shoulder while resisting with your left shoulder.

For the Downstroke, rotate your shoulders, pivot, and let your right arm release normally. Don't push your hands down to the ball. Any pushing is EA down the Right Arm, not toward the ball.

After about a month, use a golf club. Allow the shaft to set (Load) the #3 PP. Learn to LOAD it softly and hard and everywhere in-between. You can kind of load the #3 PP without EA but you can't drag it down properly without EA.

With the #3 PP Loaded, your sense of the Plane Line and On-Plane Clubshaft will be magnified because you now have two or three Pressure Points sensing the On-Plane Shaft. The #3 PP is at the Far End and you will trace the Plane Line with it and use it to meter out clubhead lag and speed.

If you learn this, you will never swing another way ever again.



INSIGHT:

1. If you cock your right wrist, then you can't ever develop the fully Loaded #3 PP.
2. Learn to do all of this with a Bent Right Wrist and Flat Left Wrist.
3. Do not move your nose.
4. Do not roundhouse your Left Shoulder.
5. Drag the Club Down with your Pivot. Do Not Sweep Release for now.
6. When you finally start using a Golf Club, taking an unwavering #3 PP, at least to the Finish Swivel, will be easy.
7. If you use EA, then you can use all of the #3 Pressure you want (you will need to use the #3 Pressure point or else the ball won't get off the Tee).
8. Without EA, the #3 PP is evil. Pure Evil.

OK - This is a communications clarification question.
Learning EA:
....Because you have a bent right arm, your hands are at or past your right side.

Do you mean shaft pointed right?

roundhouse your left shoulder

What do u mean by "roundhousing"?

but your left shoulder will go under, not around.

What is under-vs.around??

The Right Shoulder is the difficult one.

I do not understand what the right shoulder is doing?



.[*]If you use EA, then you can use all of the #3 Pressure you want (you will need to use the #3 Pressure point or else the ball won't get off the Tee). [*]Without EA, the #3 PP is evil. Pure Evil.

Do U mean this ???

The Bear

If you shorten one side of the Triangle, your Hands move to that side. This does not point the Club Right.

Put the Right Side of your head against a door jamb and take a swing. If your head bangs into the jamb, and your butt goes left, then you're round-housing.

Under your Chin.

The Right Shoulder is Lifting the Right Arm while the Right Triceps is pulling the Left Shoulder.

Yes, Evil. I mean that without EA the #3 PP is dangerous because ONLY EA can guide the Right Elbow. Without controlling the Right Elbow, you can't direct the #3 PP. It's no wonder that so many golfers decide to keep the right elbow as close to the right side as possible through-out the swing.

thanks Daryl
Think I understand U now. I have a "different" understanding and mechanics for EA. At least I have convinced myself that my mechanics do produce the results HK wrote about.

SO

Every time I see a EA discussion I jump to re- verify that what I feel I am doing is equivalent. The "what I feel" will not likely help anyone so I will skip the detail.

The Bear

Planetracer sometimes I differ from Daryl.
 

When I differ from Daryl, it is because he knows a lot about this and I am, like you, just figuring it out. Daryl is pretty amazing with TGM in my opinion.

However, I'd like to think that because he is from a suburb near Chicago, and I am really from Chicago, I am a lot more fun at parties and in golf events. I suspect I am also more charming and a lot better looking. I probably also have a more urban and urbane view of the world.

In terms of golf scoring though, he would kick my ass up and down Milwaukee Ave., all 155 miles of it. Then, he might even explain to me why he was able to beat me by 20 strokes.

I WOULD TAKE CAREFUL NOTES!

Do yourself a favor, Planetracer. Save this response. Make several copies. Put each in a seperate plastic sheet and in your golfbag. Go to the range and do as he says. Write him a pm from time to time. HE KNOWS WHAT WE WANT TO KNOW.


I shot another 81 using EA last week and hit 6 greens in regulation while flying a seventh over a pin by 15 yards.:) I then lost the EA the very next day and shot a 93.:crybaby: Kevin Carter's suggestion helped me find it again. These notes from Daryl will put money in my pocket esp. Your Left Shoulder should resist EA. This is probably a new sensation. :salut:
I had let my EA become dominant in my whole power package. In the Alignment I video which you should buy from this site, Lynn Blake/Yoda shows us that EA lifts the front arm while tracing the baseline of the plane.


Keep studying this stuff. I have come down from a 21 to a 15 hcp since March of this year!:)
Patrick

On the other hand-

TGM is about choices.

NEW HAMPSHIRE- "Live Free or Die"

The Bear

Planetracer, Teddybear is right. Life is about choices.
 

In a more free culture, you can choose to waste your time and talent as you wish, or you can learn correct ways to tie your shoe, hit a golf ball, do open heart surgery or clean up an oil spill. Freedom is a brutally tough concept that some of my Jewish ancestors could not accept after slavery, and some people can never accept because it is the hardest and greatest gift in the world. Freedom requires maturity and self control, humor, patience, humility and kindness. Freedom requires interdependence which is trusting both yourself and others. Freedom transcends bumper sticker wisdom while appreciating the necessity of the odd almost meaningless phrase to express an emotion that has to be expressed for a person to feel better.

We are all free to learn or not learn. Welcome to our forums and your new adventure, here. :)

Patrick

The phrase comes from a toast written by General John Stark on July 31, 1809. Poor health forced Stark, New Hampshire's most famous soldier of the American Revolutionary War, to decline an invitation to an anniversary reunion of the Battle of Bennington. (Gen. Stark was also at Bunker Hill) Instead, he sent his toast by letter:

Live free or die: Death is not the worst of evils.

Hope, as a teacher, you have intellect in other than history.

Have a good day. ("odd almost meaningless phrase to express an emotion that has to be expressed for a person to feel better")

The Bear

"I hope as a teacher..."
 

You missed the point but, ok, thanks! Your quote is correct and my disagreement is with the correctly expressed quote being used in a golf forum to mislead a person looking for golfing insight. Otherwise, as my six family members who have served in American armed forces will tell you, I am generally a fan of the military killing evil people and breaking their expensive toys. :)

This is very true. I'm too serious all of the time. I'm narrow minded and generally too argumentative. :)

I gather from reading your posts, that you're out-going, level headed, friendly and generally pleasant to be around. That's rare.

LMAO! You're right! I'm a real charmer!
 

Ask the kids I teach. I am "Mr. Sunshine." I'm the teacher they call when another teacher's getting their ass kicked by some kid or looks like they are about to, that's me, "Mr. Sunshine." That's why I have torn tissue in both knees and numerous aches and pains after six years at my school.


What I don't get is someone giving out good golfing advice and someone else trying to confuse the issue. I mean, when you give advice Daryl, or Kevin, or OB or Jerry or anyone else, esp. Yoda, we can go down the street to the range and try it. And when I do that and screw it up, I look at a video or 10, and use the search function so I can synch-up with the tremendous insights offered here and in TGM. My own GSEB, throws away comments based on TGM that other people could build teaching careers with. After nine lessons, I am just starting to understand lesson three.

For a person like Planetracer to start with EA is tremendous. And Daryl, your explanation of learning EA was great, imho. :sunny:

Serious is fine. Dumb as a rock but willing to learn (thinking of golf), like me is understandable, but not knowing and not wanting others to go forward is my definition of a terrible fate and unhelpful. ](*,)

Get over it!
 

innercity-
The comment re: EA that I made were serious.

I am also well aware that this is a business. Run by highly regarded professionals. I am also aware that participation is not restricted.
Make of that what U may.
A continuation of small backhanded commentary is not appropriate.
My best advice is GET OVER IT.
Nuff said!

Bear

OK, Bear.
 

When you quote Stan Lee like that, it bring's back my favorite Sgt. Rock comics! I get all emotional!:)

Thanks Daryl
 

thank you. that is a very detailed explanation. i will copy post and start work on it immediately. i have alignment dvd,and it is great :)

i think i currently use EA but i need to work on PP#3, i have trouble sensing #3 and if i focus on that while playing things dont tend to work out.
for now my feel for EA is right tricep contraction starts my hands away and keeps the right forearm tracing my straight base line.
this is how i get to the top. i am a swinger so from the top my pivot throws the right shoulder down plane,and if i keep a STEADY head pow there goes another one.

i started with the book 7th edition and the dvd, oh yeah and this website witch is a great resource and my scores have gone down. so again thanks for the help.

Daryl,
Wholehearted thanks to you for the illustrative description of EA. I really needed that. I am now looking at other threads for additional information, though I don't know why since yours was probably more than I could ever ask for.
I will be off to the back yard to work on it shortly. I have to prep for City's visit in August. I hope to lighten his wallet a bit.

I have just started doing the right forearm takeaway. I was searching how to do this AND get extensor action...I felt narrow with zero EA today. The idea of resisting with the left shoulder is like a light bulb turning on above my head. It is a foreign thought though...I have been thinking "left shoulder down and back" to start the swing for years...and it naturally was following my right elbow back with RFT attempts.

Thank you, I'll resist with L shoulder now.

I was a jerk two years ago!
 

And I didn't understand RFT or Hitting!:iamwithst

Sorry Daryl and HB!


Pat

Welcome plane tracer you chose a great topic for ur first post, extensor action is one of if not THE most important things in the golf motion, it does Sooooooo many things youcannot believe it yet hardly anyone uses it because they are simply doing it wrong. Extensor action should eliminate tension, it is simply a gentle stretch of the left arm by the right tricep to maintain the left arms natural(not hyperextended) length. Note that the stretch does not increase or is not trying to stretch it more and more it's simply a very light stetch that is maintained and not increased or decreased. Here is a drill/preshot waggle to help you feel extensor without tension. At address let both arms softly fold in towards your stomach then gently extend the clubhead down to the ball using the right tricep until the left arm is at it's natural length again it is a very light tension free pressure not increasing
or a large amount. By doing this you will assure both arms are soft an yet you have extensor and are ready to maintain it throughout the motion without tension, hope this helps

Daryl - Thanks for the instruction
 

Daryl, it appears that your EA instructional tips on this thread were posted in 2010. I am relatively new to TGM and found your advice about 1 month ago. Well, after much practice hitting plastic balls in my man cave, I took my new 'swinging' stroke to the course yesterday. Shot a 72 with 3 birdies (should have been 5)and matched my all time best score. Note, this was only my 3rd round of the year! Looking forward to a new season using EA and feeling the #3PP - the 'secret' of golf.

Hope you get to see this post and please accept my sincere apprection for sharing your TGM insights. OB Left deserves credit as well. I loved his description of always 'metering' the #3PP as well. Thanks OB

There is a difference between EA and the #1 PP.

With EA, the Right Arm straightens as it would wile performing a Reverse Arm Curl, where the Palm of the Right Hand is facing you as triceps pressure is applied. As the right hand lowers, its path is an Arc, and the hand moves away from the right shoulder with a Stationary Elbow until the Right Arm is Straight. #1 PP is more like a Push-up.

The difference is important. When using the #1 PP, the Right Hand moves away from the Shoulder in a straight line and the Elbow moves in-line with the Hand Path and Stationary Right Shoulder. This causes a straight Right Arm.

Both Actions are performed with the Inside of the Right Wrist Visible to the eye from Start-up to Both Arms Straight. And, its easy to feel that both Actions are very different and can be performed simultaneously for the "Hitter".

So, EA doesn't move the Right Elbow while the #1 PP does. The primary purpose of EA to control the Right Elbow.

Good topic again
 

Interesting!

I think ( but am not sure) That U Have it the "right way".

I found 2 ways to apply EA but the intuitive method is wrong and will do more harm than good. so, it is probably 60-40 that it will be applied wrong and will be abandoned.

I tried a discussion here about 2+ years ago but feel as though I got my head chopped off so I won't go there again.

BUT

If U have it right your explanations can be of great value for understanding proper EA application.

HB

Extensor Action is Below Plane through-out the Stroke.

#1 Accumulator is On-Plane.

What Alignment is needed to allow this?

Both use Triceps Muscle but only when the Flying Wedges are Aligned at 90 degrees can you have both Actions. I think this is an important point.

The 90 degree Wedge Alignment allows the Right Forearm Wedge to remain at Right Angles to the Left Arm Plane while the Clubshaft is On-Plane. The Clubshaft is on Both Planes Simultaneously.

This needs the the "Inside" of the Right Wrist to be visible (Facing you) through-out the the Swing from the End of Start-up to Follow-through.

Most Pros include this Alignment from the Top and during the Downstroke but HK uses the Right Forearm Take-away so the Alignment is available in Both Directions.

Now I'm not sure where you fit.


2 questions- which is more like EA? A or B?

1. opening a door- door opens out and knob is on the right:

A. turn knob counterclockwise and push?
B. Turn knob clockwise and push?

2. Pushing away and getting up from your desk:

A. palm on edge and fingers UNDER edge?
B palm on edge and fingers on TOP of desk?

??? what is your opinion? Anyone else have answers?


HB

Those are all examples of Accumulator #1

Just the EA -

EA is 6-B-1-D, 6-B-1-subtopic - first power accumulator (#1) sub topic D.

hb

I am TOTALY lost!

Guess we arn't on the same page.

hb

Maybe this will help.

When using Accumulator #1, the #3 PP and Right Shoulder move on the same Plane and the Force is On Plane.

When Using Extensor Action (which is like lowering a dumbbell) the Force is not On Plane.

One of the great "gems " from HK is 7-13, paragraph 2:

" When the Shoulder moves on the same Downstroke Plane as the Hands it provides its greatest support and its best guidance to the Stroke"

Seldom mentioned- but important. Do U see a difference between your statement and the 7-13 quote?

hb

Not at all.

Extensor Action is a Force but it doesn't move anything. It Stretches the Left Arm but doesn't move it.

We are not on the same plane. EA, in general, is a pressure,not force. it is hard to draw a picture of a zero dimension anything.

Go'ta go watch Duck Dynasty.
hb

I'm Quoting: bold by Daryl

My opinion-

EA is a pressure, which creates structure. The physical application of this pressure can either help, hinder or be neutral to alignments. The "proper" application of EA is difficult to observe. There are golfers who use a helping application, those who use a hindering application and those who have said they don't really care. All points of view are acceptable because there is always compensation and practiced technique.

I will now leave EA discussion for a time.

HB

I agree with you in that one can apply a compensation.

Although the USE of Extensor Action is very RARE I think that Many great Ball Strikers use it subconsciously. If you don't apply Extensor Action then you're missing out.

I don't see it used by Pros while Putting (its not available for "Pendulum" Strokes). That's too bad, because Extensor Action with Putting is the meaning of "Precision".

Daryl,

I think your explanation of Extensor Action is excellent. Thanks for sharing these insights.:clap:

HK and EA
 

Beyond 6-B-1-D, in edition 6, Is there any additional, significant HK writing, notes , etc. where HK discusses EA?

HB