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Right arm swinging
Yoda,
Please give your opinion of the right arm swinging procedure as catalogued by Mr. Kelley. I too admire D.G.'s advocacy of the procedure and never mean to demean him or the procedure in any way. In fact, my goal here is to continue learning, and as I have stated privately, only through you and those few who had direct contact with Mr. Kelley can his real intent be discerned. EC |
Mr. Ed
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"go right to the source, And ask the horse." :D I'll hold off for now: The Real Deal is coming. This time... From the 'horse's' mouth! |
Are we ready boys?
Ya ...I know...
Trig... Bagger... Are we there yet??? Off to Fry's to update the video SW package! Bagger |
The Water Boy
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I'll admit, I almost said something. But I didn't! ********************************* See what's happening here, folks? These guys -- Bagger and Trigolt -- are taking this site where we all want it to go. In a world of can't they're nothing but can. Proud to be part of this Team! P.S. You guys need a glass of water or something? Gatorade? Hot-buttered rum? :shock: |
Eddie,
There is one way we could really settle the right arm swinging action....get Jodie Mudd to comment on it....did Jodie use a swinging stroke pattern like the procedure taught by Tomasello on his Australia tape....from my observations of Jodie's swing, it appears that he used a swinging procedure that used a right forearm driving action...hence the right arm swing...if you digest Tommy's video (multiple viewings)....just checkout Ernie Els book "How to Build a Classic Golf Swing", Els sounds exactly like Tomasello....a good starting point is page 41 of Ernie's book... Until you have mastered an automatic release with the right arm swing...you will then begin to understand it's awesome power in addition to it's awesome accuracy. There is no separate hitting action at release. As Tomasello says...it's "One Smooth Motion"....reference 10-24-E and 1-L #7 and #10. The golf swing starts to feel effortless once you master the automatic release (make that an automatic snap release), I'm starting to TRULY understand Els swing. Yeeee Haawwwww DG |
EC,
I am not "authorized" to be considered an expert on the golfing machine, however, Homer must have put "right arm" Swinging in the book for a reason. I have video footage of Jodie Mudd and discussing his procedure to a bunch of his cronies....I will send it to you to view for yourself. You must also read Golf - O - Metrics by Joe Norwood...you can check it out at the library in Pinehurst. It is not even close to the same league as Mr. Kelley's beautiful work with the "Machine" but to those like yourself who have an "open-minded" approach to learning might find some value in it. Longitudinal Acceleration of the clubshaft at Start Down with the right forearm . The deal is the location and alignment of the right elbow and forearm in relation to the secondary lever (7-3). I personally have felt the "twinge" in my right elbow from the right elbow becoming the "center" of the stroke, resulting in many "pull- hooks, fat shots, throwaway. etc..." because of my "trial and error" style of learning. I was misled early on in my training in the"Machine" that swinging was only"Left-sided' and hitting is only "right-sided". The truth is in 1-F,7-3.10-3 B 2nd and 3rd editions . I wonder what happens when you combine a major stroke like pitch or"slap" (10-3) with a minor stroke like "pull" 10-3 D. To know the machine is to "apply" the machine... I would highly encourage trying more than just the "two" of its recommended uncompensated stroke patterns. Maybe perhaps read all 6 published editions when studying a particular concept or component. It might help you find more "nuggets" of insight. It was great to see you and Scottie B last week, I always learn something in our discussions. Theory is exactly that ... a theory, but real power comes in the application of theories to realize their truth or their misses. The Force is with you....use the Force, Annikan[/b] |
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Can you post some of the info regarding the right arm swing from the 2nd and 3rd per 1-F, 7-3, 10-3-B as you indicated...I think it would enlighten us all....thanks for your input. DG |
DG,
I had typed in a reply and it was an "all-star" and the "dog ate it!" No just kidding, Don't have a dog ...Yet!!! It's IMPORTANT to distinguish between a Left Arm Stroke while utilizing right arm participation(10-3-B-Pitch) vs. a Right Arm Stroke utilizing right arm participation(10-3-K-Bat). As stated before. I am not an authorized expert...Don't claim to be ... Don't want to be!!! However I am a former machine addict who is "backslidin" with forums such as this "Really Cool One" set-up by Lynn Blake. Right Arm Swinging - replaces the Left Shoulder as the center of the clubhead arc with the right elbow (10-3-K) Left Arm Swinging with right arm participation still maintains the Left Shoulder as the center of the stroke...It is still "Left-sided" with its alignment and application of force... This is what I believe Jodie Mudd is describing. The tapes of Jodie Mudd are very low in quality and are borrowed from some friends of mine. I'll see what I can do!!! When utlizing right arm participation it is important to adjust the Wrist Action(Swivel into Standard Wrist Action during Start-Up), Hand Speed, and Lag Loading, to comply with the proper wrist alignments for a sequenced release via a wrist throw, not a right arm throw which tends toward the hitters simultaneous release motion and now you have 4 Barrel Hitting, NOT SWINGING!!! Right Arm Swinging in the "Book" is what some of my peers have taught with the ole you gotta "Stay Connected and Spring the Shaft"...which I felt was actually Hitting... Again...I have always been a GUINNEA PIG or Lab RAT willing to test anything just to see what would happen. That' s How you learn the "Yellow Book" ...Go try it ... the worst that can happen is don't do it again and go back to what you were doing before... Mama said, "Don't touch the stove or you'll get burnt...What did we all do...even today my beautiful 9 Month old understands..."NO!" DG, thanks for your interest in right arm participation...like 1-F says the "mystery of golf fades away when right arm participation is understood and then can be utilized...PARAPHRASED ... probably with errors!!! Keep up the quest... Hopefully I'll be able to post more before my wife finds out!!! She's the Boss and a Great One for putting up with my "Machine Addiction". Sincerely, Annikan |
Skywalker,
This sounds like what Mr. Tomasello(Jodie's teacher before Mac) was teaching. He did want the left shoulder to be the center of the STROKE, but utilized right arm participation. The Austrailian Version... was a little different. |
Annikan,
Sound and visual quality of the Mudd video are not critical, the information is more important. DG |
DG,
I must humble myself....I stand corrected about trigger combinations in Chapter 11 2nd and 3rd Editions Trigger Release Combo Type A - Hand Throw B/C A B - Right Arm Throw All B/C/F C - Shoulder Turn Throw A/B B/C/F D - Delivery Path Throw B/E D/E E - Wrist Throw B/D D/E/F Major changes with 4th edition - 1979 A - Hand Throw B/C A B - Right Arm Throw A/D B/C C - Shoulder Turn Throw E B/C D - Delivery Path Throw B D/E E - Wrist Throw C D/E/F 2nd Edition 10-20-B This procedure has wide application where right arm power is employed. It is simply the Right Arm PUSHING the Left Arm away from the chest (in addition to any extensor effort) and can be introduced at any point in the downstroke - deliberately or automatically. For the automatic application IT MUST BE COMBINED WITH TYPES C,D AND/OR E. 3rd Edition 10-20-E By delaying the roll of the wrists until the end of the Delivery Path Line, regardless of other Power Package actions, will produce a very fine Automatic Snap Release _ especiallly when COMBINED WITH TRIGGER TYPES B AND/OR D. See also 6-B-3-C. Sorry, about the mistake I read the wrong edition. Again. After reading the posts on right arm swinging... I guess I'm out of my league... I'll try to say less to gain more!!! I'll sit back for now...observe and listen...incubate....until the mystery of right arm participation is solved. Thank you for your Reproof! Annikan |
DG,
I must humble myself....I stand corrected about trigger combinations in Chapter 11 2nd and 3rd Editions Trigger Release Combo Type A - Hand Throw B/C A B - Right Arm Throw All B/C/F C - Shoulder Turn Throw A/B B/C/F D - Delivery Path Throw B/E D/E E - Wrist Throw B/D D/E/F Major changes with 4th edition - 1979 A - Hand Throw B/C A B - Right Arm Throw A/D B/C C - Shoulder Turn Throw E B/C D - Delivery Path Throw B D/E E - Wrist Throw C D/E/F 2nd Edition 10-20-B This procedure has wide application where right arm power is employed. It is simply the Right Arm PUSHING the Left Arm away from the chest (in addition to any extensor effort) and can be introduced at any point in the downstroke - deliberately or automatically. For the automatic application IT MUST BE COMBINED WITH TYPES C,D AND/OR E. 3rd Edition 10-20-E By delaying the roll of the wrists until the end of the Delivery Path Line, regardless of other Power Package actions, will produce a very fine Automatic Snap Release _ especiallly when COMBINED WITH TRIGGER TYPES B AND/OR D. See also 6-B-3-C. Sorry, about the mistake I read the wrong edition. Again. After reading the posts on right arm swinging... I guess I'm out of my league... I'll try to say less to gain more!!! I'll sit back for now...observe and listen...incubate....until the mystery of right arm participation is solved. Thank you for your Reproof! Annikan |
DG.
For some reason the format I typed in on trigger types did not come out right when the post was submitted...Please click on edit to see correct typing format! Sincerely, Annikan |
As Ben Doyle once said, "It isn't this hard!" I've watched the Tomasello tape kindly provided by DG and read most, if not all, of the discussions concerning Right Arm Swinging. I believe what Tom shows is not a RAS at all, but rather a version of a Left Arm Swing, in which the Left Arm is inert, as he explicitly states. The Right Arm with simultaneous help from the turning left hip allows CF to uncock the Left Wrist via a Left Arm pull. It's still a Left Arm Stroke. Tom's Right Elbow position is not forward enough for the Right Arm to PULL, it can only push. To pull, the Right Elbow must be advanced well forward of the right hip. And to be a true RAS, the Right Elbow MUST replace the Left Shoulder as the swing center, which doesn't happen in Tom's stroke.
I have described my own version of the Right Arm Swing and it's stress on the Right Arm, but have been told that I'm not executing it correctly. Maybe someone can explain to me how you can pull the club through Impact with the Right Arm, without advancing the Right Elbow past the right hip before release. |
Skywalker,
Please continue posting on this topic. Some of the lost information, to many of us, may get uncovered. It makes no difference to me what the STROKE is CALLED... Right Arm Swinging, or Swinging that Involves Right Arm Particitation. "The Bat"... is not what we are talking about here, but something considerably different. Thanks, lagster |
Mizuno,
I think you are very close. I think the Start Down (using Longitudinal Acceleration with the right arm) is one of the Keys to this Stroke. I would like to see more on this. This is just another Stroke Variation, that some may want to employ, or understand. Most TGMers will probably always be BASIC PATTERN Swingers and/or Hitters. lagster |
Joe,
Tommy taught a right arm swing... DG |
Dave,
Are you saying that the fanning motion of the Right Forearm can pull the clubshaft longitudinally even though the Right Elbow is not past the right hip at release, provided there is enough Right Wrist Bend? |
Here are my two recent posts on right arm swinging...they still stand.
DG Annikan, Sound and visual quality of the Mudd video are not critical, the information is more important. Yes, Jodie's comments are coming from what Tomasello taught as swinging (right forearm startdown, right arm acceleration, but retaining the left shoulder as the swing arc). In the video of Tomasello, Tommy makes the comment....the right arm is not driving out like a true hitter’s right arm thrust. I believe what separates a true right arm swing versus a stroke that uses right arm acceleration and retains the left shoulder as the swing arc is the release type. Automatic release (no separately timed thrusting action at release, its one smooth driving motion from the start down) with right arm acceleration and the left shoulder as the swing arc is retained. With a non-automatic release, the swing arc will change with the focus on manually releasing the right elbow, so, the left shoulder for the non-automatic release is being "replaced by the Right Elbow". If you read 10-20-B which I believe Tomasello and Jodie Mudd are using as their trigger type in combination with 10-20-D....that component variation (10-20-B) makes an important point...."The Right Arm (6-B-1) simply pushes the Lever Assemblies (6-A) toward Impact with either early or late release. That comment is critical. My interpretation of that comment is...the early release is non-automatic (full sweep releases from different points in one's stroke, ideal for pitching and long chips)....the late release comment is for the automatic type...an automatic snap release, ideal for a full swing application. Ideally, the application for the true bat approach (right elbow arc) is in the short game (hence the name, minor basic strokes)....when the golfer can use what Ben Doyle calls a soft stroke where the release type is a full sweep release. I still believe whether you retain the left shoulder as the swing arc or replace it with the right elbow, it's still right arm swinging (where acceleration is applied is key, first paragraph of 10-3-K and page 235, where Homer makes the comment, Accelerating the club longitudinally, with either arm, is swinging), the lower body is responding to the action of the right forearm and right triceps (Hey, Yoda, I mentioned the triceps for once, it feels weird)....the advanced golfer who understands the release types and their application will understand what I mean. Thanks for your input...yeah, I would appreciate a copy of the tape...even if the dog has taken a bit out of it!!! Yoda, thanks for putting up both the basic and advanced golfing machine sections, it's a much needed addition for the TGM forum format. DG Joe, Tommy taught a right arm swing...release action, non-automatic or automatic release defines where the center of the swing arc is....automatic - left shoulder....non-automatic - right elbow (a true bat for the swinger using right arm acceleration with the emphasis of the right forearm action triggering the release of the right elbow), right arm swinging can utilize both swing centers (read the first paragraph of 1-F and the first sentence of the second paragraph), right arm swing is the only logical name to describe what Tomasello taught. Like I said...acceleration is the key, first paragraph of 10-3-K...the right arm swing is a derivative of 10-3-K, what I mean by that is...it takes the idea of right arm acceleration from 10-3-K from the first paragraph, that's where it ends. The lower body responds to the action of the right forearm. Watch Tommy's video/DVD from the 50 minute mark to the 60 minute, listen for the comment, to paraphrase Tom "The left hip will respond to action of the right arm...going to a long right arm". After viewing that section go to the last 10 minutes of the video...with a 5-wood in hand, Tom makes the comment "One Smooth Motion"...in that comment, Tom is telling you how he is executing the right arm at the most advanced level with an automatic snap release generated by a driving right arm...no separate hitting action. Joe...here is where the true confusion lies....Tommy did in fact teach a right arm swing, what he didn't teach is a true bat stroke...just the derivative of the bat, the right arm swing...for Tomasello it was the swinging procedure..... DG |
That still doesn't answer my question - does the Right Arm actually pull the shaft longitudinally? If so, how can the Right Arm pull any way other than by thrusting the Right Elbow in front of the left hip? Tom does not do that, so how can his Right Elbow replace his Left Shoulder as the Swing Center, when it is so far back?
Here's the problem - if the Right Arm is extended by the Right Tricep, that movement uncocks the Left Wrist and so is not a Swing. The only way I can see the Right Arm pulling the shaft is by thrusting it in front of the right hip with that thrust providing the pull. The Right Tricep remains passive. The Right Arm gets extended by the subsequent pull of the club past separation. Any firing of the Right Tricep before separation will replace CF as the mechanism which is uncocking the Left Wrist. |
Joe,
For some of the short shots in the video Tom uses a full sweep release where the emphasis is on manually releasing the right elbow at the beginning of the downstroke (for short shots), one could call that a bat type of stroke. Yes, Tom pulled the club longitudinally with the right forearm in addition to the left forearm, emphasis on the right....if you go to the quiver demonstration in the 40 to 45 minute mark....Tom clearly demonstates the pulling action with the right arm....it's one smooth motion, the club is released by pivot action and the accelerating right arm goes to a long right arm... What Tom taught was not a hitting action...it's a swinging action with right arm acceleration....two different animals. It's one smooth motion....not two. The right forearm accelerates the club down with an even rhythm....that's why the golfers who understand how works produce smooth golf swings, yet powerful golf swings. DG |
Dave,
I'll review the CD again, think this over, and do some experimenting. Thanks. |
RIGHT ARM SWING
FYI
I'm the one that called the Tom Tomasello procedure/approach a right arm swing....what Tom called it was "THE SWINGING PROCEDURE"...which utilzed RIGHT ARM (FOREARM) ACCELERATION per 10-3-B, -D, and -K it used each of those section 3 components.....a right forearm underhand pitch stroke (10-3-B), right forearm pulling action (10-3-D) and right forearm acceleration (10-3-K). So, the "Right Arm Swing" is a Non-automatic release 4 barrel stroke per 10-3-B, -D, -K and 7-19/1-F. DG |
Swinging -- Day And Night
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Right Arm Swing is accelerating the Golf Club Longitudinally with the Right Arm -- always with neglible benefit from Body Momentum Transfer. Neither can be the other. Never ever. |
Yoda,
Where does it say that in the book....that might apply to drive loading (axe handle, radial acceleration) and lag loading (rope handle, longitudinal acceleration). With the right arm swing we're not mixing the two, it's all rope handle... I got to believe Tomasello discussed the right arm swing with Homer...Tommy contacted Homer around 1980...by the mid-80's he was teaching this procedure to PGA pros and teaching professionals, he must have started teaching it before that...it's a shame we don't have a record of it. DG |
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