The left arm may be less relevant to Westwood but its not to Hitters general as you imply. In fact Id say that learning the feel associated with thrusting the entire Primary Lever (left arm and club) at the #1 pp by the right arm , was for me the biggest step forward when I learned to Hit. As taught to me by Yoda and Ted Fort.

Joe , or his line of thinking , puts some serious constraints on Hitting, doesn't it? A disservice to Hitting and those who would learn how to do it. Constraints that preclude a lot of the 1-L's . With all due respect , I don't think the notion that "Hitting is defined by a truly straight line club head path" is correct. It would mandate a club head only plane as opposed to a shaft plane . If this were so , Homer would have specified that the 1 L's in question were for Swingers only. Gosh the machine he drew would be Swingers machine only!

In chapter 2, Homer's drawing of the straight line Angle of Approach would not need to have been drawn "from the players perspective". As was the case. Take a look at the fine print beside the drawing. You will note that it does not read "plan view" ! In fact Homer never draws the straight line angle of approach from any other perspective than the players ! Why? Because it isn't truly a straight line! It only appears to be straight from that one view point.

I know there are drawings out there showing a straight line angle of approach from other points of view. But IMO they are not correct. Drawings by people we know , respect and in some cases love but they were not drawn by Homer's hand. Im out on a very long limb here I know.

If Im wrong then please tell me so ..... I am here to learn to compress my balls better not bust anybody else's. Whip, you're young , a great player, a GSEB , a teacher with a passion for the game , a swinger..............its in your best interest to know hitting in all its forms. I suspect that despite what Joe said , you actually were Hitting! You didn't need to kill that procedure.

Respectfully.
ob

The only real difference between Hitter and Swinger is the physics behind the geometry - spin the flywheel or fire the right triceps. The club head always moves in an arc from any perspective, other than when the eye lies in the plane of the orbiting club head. The left shoulder is the center and the left arm has extensor action applied to it, in a proper TGM stroke, Hit or Swing. A GSEB should know this.

Obviously u can use either or but they should not be paired horizontal hinging and standard wrist action do not go with hitting neither does the arc of approach. Swinger there is a centered motion throw out action from it's center, the hitter is an uncentered straight line thrust the structure of extensor helps both hitting and swinging but the left arm is less important in the uncentered hitters motion I'm not making this stuff up. This seems like another one of those cases where u think homers ideas were just theory or practically a myth. There is an angle of approach folks and the hitter uses it it is not a curved blur it is a straight line off plane in the follow through straight line no curve not making this stuff up folks

ob the player's perspective of the visual equivalent is just that exclusively a VISUAL equivalent

Ok know what you mean but id say thats true only when looking at the guys who swing and hit in a very similar fashion, drag loading hitting specifically , arc of approach procedure. Like me for instance. But the Angle of Approach procedure if its employed (and its typically a hitter who would use it) , would have a very different geometry . Through impact and else where. The Plane Angle is higher , Delivery Line is out to the right , Angled Hinging vs Horizontal typically , steeper angle of attack given how steep the plane angle is etc etc etc .

Only if his eye is in the plane of the orbiting club head.

That statement was merely pointing out the club head moves in a curved path(close to circular) throughout and so also shortly before, at, and after impact - the blur from any perspective, except if the eye is in the plane of the curved orbit.

Yes, the plane line is shifted to the right so that you have an in-to-out club head path, rather than just an in-to-out impact. But, if the club head blur appears perfectly straight, then the dominant eye lies in that steeper plane of the club head. However, off that plane, there is a curve to it. The point I'm making is that you can also do the same plane shift with a Swinging motion and the same release point, which would give a blur which appears identical to the player. Moreover, even the most discerning spectator might not be able to tell you which was a Hit and which was a Swing.

By plane shift do you mean a shift up to a club head only eye plane or out to the right 10-5-E . I assume you mean the former... Sorry don't follow. If its the latter and your swinging its just a closed plane line.. Inside out stroke. Draw shot procedure typically with a curved blur.

The true geometric Angle OF Approach Procedure where the club head is seen to travel a straight line delivery line is very un swingerish. Full on manipulation , non shaft planar ..... not a rock on a string deal more of a right arm and club shaft describing a cone shape .... Its a bit of a weird duck.

And this is where my thinking runs into some trouble because Homer in conversation with Yoda said Arnie was a hitter who used the Angle of Approach . But when I imagine what Arnies blur might have looked like to his eye , I think it must have been a curve given his plane angle. Something Yoda wondered about too and wrote about on this board. This is one reason why I differentiate the true Angle of Approach procedure ( where the golfer sees the straight line) from the hitter with angled who points his plane line 10-5-E but sees a curved blur. Two different animals. Both hitting.

If you go far enough down this path you get into the meat of Homers ball flight laws. Something we can now prove or disprove given doppler radar ... maybe. He was way ahead of the curve on this but Im not sure what his batting average was ... really really good but a perfect 1000 ? I dunno that'd be amazing for a guy who worked with only a pencil, paper and one heck of an inquisitive mind. What a story!

And Im not making up the fact that Homer did say a Swinger could possibly use the Angle of Approach procedure . Unlikely , uncommon and highly manipulated though it would be. Homer in his cataloguing defined the two theoretical extremes and everything in the middle. Thats the range of possibilities however ungolf like they may be.

Why do u think that because he is on the elbow plane he does not see a straight line also what's this about Doppler I don't believe it.

mj my impressions, in the process of becoming a gseb was that a hitter sees a visually STRAIGHT line of the clubhead blur, unfortunately im not going to delve deeper on that subject because this is the strong impression i have recieved and I am going to stick with it. obviously everyone is entitled to their own interpretations no matter correct or incorrect. It is the intention of this forum i would hope to utilize many minds well versed in TGM to come to conclusions about concepts. sometimes there is just not enough time and the concept somewhat abstract and complex requiring an understanding of all the pitfalls that entail such a discussion. I apologize for any ill will life is too short for any of that.

Ask yourself this when the body is turning can u pull along the angle of approach straight blur?

Its highly unlikely . I want to say no. But when asked about this Homer's first reaction was to say it wasn't possible , but then upon reflection backed away from this position. But only ever so slightly . Thats not un Homer like , some of the photos are decidedly un golf like but within the realm of possibility and therefor worthy of being catalogued. Snap Loading always looks weird to me for instance . I used to wonder why the heck that was in there? But no longer. Still haven't seen it in the flesh though. Probably never will.

I know squat about doppler but I don't think the readings could be wrong. Maybe the interpretation of things could get out of whack but not the data... assuming its properly collected , calibrated etc .

The only way to see the straight line club head blur is to plane the club head to a super high plane. Homer said " now its a vertical plane angle , well almost vertical". Arnie had a pretty high plane angle but not that high. He also looks to be planing his shaft for the most part. And so it makes me wonder what blur he would see assuming he noticed the blur. Its only an option for monitoring club travel its not an imperative or anything. Id bet on some sort of cross line aiming point , right arm throw deal if you put a gun to my head on Arnies monitoring . Which you probably wouldnt mind doing right now I suspect. You and a whole bunch of other people .

I still don't know why u think in order to use the angle of approach the plane must be very steep why?

Suicide is no laughing matter we don't wanna see a gun to your head Ob, ya I would say that any supposed information that disproved homer is suspect

Im not trying to disprove Homer in any way, Just trying to shed some light on his geometry.

Thats just the way the geometry of a circle and any tangent to it work. Given an angle of inclination to the plane of the circle, the low point plane line and the impact plane line will not lie on top of each other vertically.

If you have a plane board at your disposal using a common plane angle elbow or whatever : plane your shaft at impact and then cover the plane line visually with the club head during start up. You will see the head and the club moving off plane immediately in start up ... out above the initial plane . Immediately and progressively out to a higher plane angle. Or put your putter in a putting rail for straight back straight through strokes and watch the shaft move of it original plane angle in startup. You could use a string line too as its really just a very small horizontal section of an angled plane. Imagine hundreds of strings forming a plane board ...which is somewhat angled. The plane board and the putting arc are mutually exclusive ... they can't be used at the same time!

This was common stuff back in the 70's for full swings , when guys covered the line , straight back , SQuare to Square by Dick Aultman etc . Homer said the attempt to cover the line was the reason for the super high plane angles of his day both in the audio tapes and in the book.


See Turning Shoulder Plane 10-6-D and look at the photo to see how high the plane angle is.




BTW while this plane is not "undoubtedly the most widely used" plane angle anymore there are still some using it . Jim Furyk for instance gets his hands sky high .................... and who's father during his formative years , had him cover a ruler which was placed directly behind his golf ball. Straight back in startup.


First time I saw the arc of approach it was spray painted on a rubber mat at George Knudsons range in Buttonville. I hated it. Cause it made my swing "flat". I didn't want to swing like George....didnt want a lesson from him. What an idiot I was. His son is teaching now ... might go get a lesson to try and right that wrong.

Of course the alternative is tracing but focusing on the blur is very useful and will keep your head steady

[quote=O.B.Left;92567]Thats just the way the geometry of a circle and any tangent to it work. Given an angle of inclination to the plane of the circle, the low point plane line and the impact plane line will not lie on top of each other vertically.
[quote]


The impact plane line and low point plane line will never be atthe same point unless u are playing it at low point

I still do not understand why u think the elbow plane cannot see an angle of approach

Agreed ...............

You can have an elbow plane with the right arm and club shaft inline but if its pointing at the plane line and the club head is covering the Angle of Approach the right arm and club will be describing a cone shape as opposed to an on plane motion. Don't think this is outside of Homer Single horizontal is a primary lever cone shaped motion too. Put your shaft along a plane board and try to cover the plane line from a ball at low point , or anywhere else for that matter....... on plane shaft travel and club head covering the plane line are mutually exclusive. You can't do both.

The problem we have here is Im talking geometry.... pencil and paper drawings would make this more apparent to you.

Why would u cover The plane line?

That was just an example, golfers using the Angle of Approach do cover a straight line be it the plane line or the Angle which for ball back of low point is 10-5-E out to the right .

But it should be noted that a ball positioned at low point would have an Angle of Approach on top , square to the true plane line meaning that he or she would cover the plane line. Impact and Low point plane lines being one and the same.

In this instance the hitters cross line active right arm thrust however would still be geometrically correct given the thrust continues down and out to both arms straight not low point. See 1-L something or other. Its a revelation that one.

Golfers using the Angle of Approach do cover a straight line Plane Line be it the true plane line or for balls played back of low point a 10-5-E out to the right deal. The former are square the latter are closed to various degrees.


A golfer employing the Angle of Approach procedure while positioning the ball at low point would have a straight line Angle of Approach blur which appeared to be on top of the true plane line, visually l Not to the right, although the thrust is to the right ... if you know what I mean. The plane line and the impact plane line are one and the same when the ball is positioned at low point but the thrust continues down and out to both arms straight.

Actively or passively the thrust continues down and out to both arms straight ........ not low point. See 1-L something or other. Its a revelation that one. One of Homers greatest .

This is where the true geometric Angle as a procedure gets differentiated from a 10-5-E inside out stroke. And it aint black and white as the visual curved blur you see gets more straight line as the plane angle approaches the eye line. . Theortically it could appear as a reverse arc , smiley face if the plane got above the eye plane.

Remember Visual Equivalents are just that .. illusions to the true path of the club head that are useful as a guide or reference if you so choose. There are other methods of monitoring the same.

What? The arc of approach is a curved blur in the eye of the golfer. i know i could be missing something here ob no disrespect to your opinion this stuff can be difficult to comprehend and none of this discussion is ever personal for me only to seek the truth through back and forth discussion, i think i just got the impression from my sources very strongly that the VISUAL equivalent of an angle of approach is just and only that a VISUAL equivalent even if in reality it is seemingly geometrically impossible, but like i said the hitters motion is uncentered and therefore not subject to the geometry and it's subsequent visual equivalents caused by the left shoulder center. this is my interpretation at least.

hitting, swinging is my thing but this works too

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KsuD...e_gdata_player

This is the most interesting discussion I've read for quite some time.

Popcorn and the yellow book is out.

:salut:

Lots of nice stuff there Whip. Love how your left hip is back while your sliding your hips left. Slide with a Delayed Turn as Lynn teaches it not as photo'd in the book. Lynn clarified this whole thing on this forum once upon a time. A must read IMO as this move is critical. Hogan in the photo below appears to demonstrating Slide with a Delayed Turn as Lynn teaches it I believe.

You're really trying to get your right elbow in front there , I try to as well and for the same reason ....delayed release . Ill unbend my right elbow to make it a past a stuck right hip... unbending being release and earlier than snap. I suspect Hogan worked on the right elbow passing the hip too given the other photo below. If memory serves this photo was taken as part of a right elbow drill which was presented in Power Golf.

Nice impact and Follow Through, both arms straight. Thats some nice passive right arm thrust , cross line all the way to both arms straight per 1-L something. Oops missed that photo but I saw it . Did Bucket ever talk to you about your head movement post both arms straight? He did with me way back when . Its interesting stuff.

Ill save Air the leg work ... here is Lynns post on the photos in question . This is a must know item, get ready to mark up your books guys.

I think Lynn posted his thoughts on the notations necessary to correct this business in the book . Ill try to find the post or share my notes if anyone is interested. Or you can think of Hogans photo above when reading about the Slide with a Delayed Hip Turn in the book.

typo, thanks.

He knows it inside out!
 

The geometry Ive discussed is not mine. I read a couple of particularly interesting posts on this forum and sought out the man who wrote them. I got on a plane and flew for 2 hours to see him. He spent two years researching the visual equivalents , the Angle primarily and graciously shared some of his findings with me. Not all of them by any means. He poured over everything Homer wrote and said about the Angle and had a "eureka I've found it" or epiphany kind of moment. He can display the various procedures and has used the Angle as discussed above in pro golf tourneys. He can use the angle or the arc while Hitting. He can see a curved blur or a straight one while hitting. He knows how to produce both and what the benefits and disadvantages to each of them are. He knows what component changes are necessary and why for each procedure. He can teach the Swingers Arc too.

I have given a lot of thought to his findings and tried to build upon my understanding of it and for that reason may have most likely offered some things which are not congruent with his line of thinking. I dunno. I do make mistakes. For the most part the things Ive discussed can be found in a few very brief posts by the man himself , on this board. Its more alluded to than outlined but its there or here, I should say. I hope I haven't touched on anything that would be considered proprietary . If so I apologize, that was not my intention.

There is more, much more ... things I know of and things I have no idea about most likely.

Anyone interested should get a lesson from the man himself , Mr Ted Fort , Fortified Golf. I owe him much. Yoda too of course. Guys I admire and guys Im proud to call friends.

I figured out the snap release I'll tell u the little trick I use. The turned and cocked left wrist pull the turned fanned on plane right forearm at the ball as if the right forearm extended all the way down as if it were the club meanwhile the cocked left wrist is turned on plane 90 degrees to the right forearm until the instant swivel There ya go that's the secret almost as f the left knuckles aim the right forearm club turned on plane. of course you dont need to snap release so...

Nice sounds like Drag Loading , Longitudinal Acceleration . Do you feel the tug of this at the #2 pp. The last three fingers of the left hand say... I do. And also in the right hand too. As if both hands were getting pulled .

The pulling by the pivot of the arms and turned to plane hands you discuss can be found in the description of the Wrist Throw Release Trigger. Some feel the pull primarily at the last three fingers in the left hand , some at both hands. The uncocking of the #2 angle happens while the left and right hands stay flat to the plane , once they leave this flat to the plane condition #3 has been initiated ... sequenced release. 2 then 3. Learn to Sequence with a Random Sweep first then Delay it via the aiming point procedure to attempt snap. The longer the in line longitudinal acceleration , arrow from quiver, rope pulling, the later the release of #2 radially. A little Float loading and stopping at top really helps with this. Or per Homers analogy the longer the straight line hand path the smaller the pulley wheel.

But you have to get the right elbow in front to really get there . If the right elbow can't get past a stuck right hip the right arm will straighten to allow the hands free passage to the ball... that and your shoulders will roundhouse on higher plane angle.... another compensation for the stuck right hip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIes_-QSaO8&sns=em
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFjBY7IHDLA&sns=em
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XN_yi4kMuas&sns=em

Paragraph four says this ..."the point to be learned here is that the club because of the flat left wrist must always travel at the same rpm as the arms and reproduce the selected hinge action and lag loading procedure regardless of clubhead extension velocity

What about the right arm wedge is the left wrist perpendicular to the bend of the right wrist yes

I Ref. to paragraph #4;
"For a practice drill, educate the Left Hand.............
...know their differences."
There is where my question is rooted.

HB

Hmmm that's not paragraph 4 in my book I quoted it

Hmmmm, I can then assume...

HB

As far as the passage u speak of IMO I don't think u can really compare the drills apparently the book im using currently differs slightly from the book you are using which is definitely possible, different editions were edited... well differently lol.

This is my best swing on record
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIes_-QSaO8&sns=em