Yoda

I agree - the body must set.

When I describe a reactive pivot swing, I am simply describing an arm swing with a body set (the body falls forward before the arms swing the club through the impact zone). In other words, there is a pelvis shift left-laterally that happens before the arms swing down through the impact zone, but the pelvic motion doesn't pull the arms down. The arms swing down independently while the lower body is independently shifting left-laterally. That's what I perceive Shawn Clement is doing in his swing. He uses float loading and then simply uses his arms to pull the club down to the ball. While the arms are pulling the club down (event number 1) the pelvis is shifting left laterally (event number 2) and the final swing is a coordination of two independent movements (that are not causally connected). In an active pivot action swing, the pivot actually activates the downward movement of the left arm via the kinetic sequence. The left arm is catapulted off the chest wall by the pivot (pivot-activated release of PA#4) and not independently pulled down by arm/shoulder girdle muscles (arm-activated release of PA#4). In other words, in a pivot active swing action, the pivot causally causes the left arm to swing down to impact; while in a reactive pivot swing action there are two independent body actions that are time-coordinated.

12PB

Thanks for the link to the Allen Doyle swing video. I must try and mimic his swing actions. I love experimenting with different golf swing methods.

Jeff.

Jeff . . . . I think there is some validity to what you have said above . . . . regarding independent arm motion and blasting off . . . Mr. Kelley distinguished between pivot and non-pivot delivery.

I would say that regardless of whether you choose to blast the arm off the chest or move it independently . . .the CRITICAL piece is that you do it in such away that the HANDS STAY ON THE SELECTED PLANE.

That is one problem I have when people refer to the left arm being "blasted off the chest" . . . well ok fine . . . but WHERE is the left arm blasted? Homer said that if he had to retitle the book he would have called it Plane G.O.L.F. One of the problems that I still struggle with as a swinger is actually blasting the arm in a way that it throws it out over the plane. You can simply spin the shoulders into the #4 pressure point pinning the left arm and NEVER RELEASE #4 . . . which results in a plane shift and bent plane line.

Homer said "accumulators have to release" . . . and they ideally release in such a way that the hands and the club stay on plane. At the top of the swing with startdown there is some "independence" I think with the hips sliding and tilting the axis and #4 releasing to keep the hands ON PLANE. My first introduction to the Golfing Machine was the Ben Doyle tapes which maybe I didn't understand or misrepresent but that navel seek elbow deal with major deeeeep pitch IS NOT RELEASING #4 OR #1 and causes I host of problems that I still struggle with (bobbing, underplane, flashing clubface, . . . ). Not good. Somehow you have to pivot AND GET THE HANDS GOING DOWN THE FACE OF THE PLANE. Monitor it all . ..

The Other Doyle
 

"I'll say it again. The fairway gets to be a lonely place." AD

Jeff to answer your question in brief I would have to say.....MacDonald drills.

To answer it more fully I would say: Forget X factor, rotate your hips like Jones, Nicklaus or Snead (they did OK) and lift your left foot off the ground on the backswing. Understand that golf is a motion, a dance and that lag and pivot lag however small is what you are seeking.

I had the pleasure of spending the greater part of last week at Cuscowila with Lynn and my older brother, The Judge. (As some people from the Homecoming will know him). The Judge is mid sixties and twenty five years into a lower lumbar spinal fusion that was thought to last only ten years. Since the Homecoming and formal lessons from Luke and Lynn and informal lessons from Augusta Golf and Paul Hart the Judge has totally revolutionized his pivot. A thing he thought impossible given his flexibility.

My brother loves the MacDonald drills. For him it has been the answer to a
15 year fight with his pivot.

FYI Lynn is always saying that nobody is less flexible that himself. In your most recent photos you are actually taking farther back than Lynn are you not? Farther back than many accomplished golfers.

O.B.

X factor
 

McClean has admitted that X factor at a minimum was incomplete if not wrong. More of a dynamic deal than X at top.

Match
 

Bucket,

You can have anybody on the site for a partner. I'll take Doyle and play you for whatever you want, for as many days as you want, as long as it is tight off the tee. I'll just ride in the cart and cheer my man on. Senior majors for ........

I'll take Mike O . . . . if you make sure that they leave the rakes around the bunkers . . . we'll just play y'all once and see how you feel about the bet after that. See you Sat. at 8. Mike usually brings "homemade" breakfast too. His wife Greg or whatever his/her name is now will want to ride in the cart too . . . hope he want be a problem.

See you there!

12PB

Very good post!

I agree that the primary need is to get the hands down-and-out on the plane whatever the method of releasing PA#4.

It is very interesting that the golf style that keeps the left arm across the chest (keeping PA#4 loaded) for the longest time is the Hardy OPS. However, the Hardy OPS golfer manages to keep the clubshaft on-plane during the time period that PA#4 remains loaded because of the bent-over posture and their rotary pivot style where the upper and lower torso turn as a single unit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pu-wDdY8-g4




OBLeft

Thanks for he advice. I have just received the Alignment Golf DVDs (which I haven't yet viewed) and I will look into the MacDonald drills.

Jeff.

Jeff

I now see your quest for golf knowledge in a different light. If you are seeking an improved action given your physical limitations then you Sir are a practical seeker like the rest of us golf nut bars.

Here is a drill that I love but please exercise extreme caution given your back issues.

-with a 9 iron
-no ball
-from fix and with EA turned on
-turn right hip back (pre setting a cleared right hip for the back AND the thru)
-slide your hips several inches targetwards until you knee is approx over your left foot. (your weight is now preset to the left and your head is still centered). In a mirror you will appear very Hogan like.
-with light lag pressure take an easy 3/4 swing (Which is all one ever really needs assuming you get to right shoulder high, top). Hold your right hip back in startdown and release.

If this tweaks your back a little then make sure you allow for the release of your right hip, letting the body pull it around post impact. If it hurts a lot abandon the drill and axis tilt in favour of circle path albeit with a cleared right hip.

Its a strange feeling at first, with the right hip held back. You will notice that your divots are straight however! Yes sir.

If you are able to this without hurting your back try a few shots with easy lag pressure. The contact is addictive. I fell so much in love with this drill that I tried to play a round with it. My back was a mess after 9 holes and I had to abandon it, but the drill remains as my primary anti cut shot therapy. A great stance to assume when doing start down waggles too.

While the preset drill can be harmful if over done, I believe that with shorter shots and easy lag pressure, its an excellent way to ingrain these alignments for use in a non harmful more dynamic full swing.

I no longer see the swing as being as rotational as I once did. Id be interested to know how this works for you.

O.B.

Jeff . . . . Don't know much about Hardy's stuff . . . . but I would submit that this guy IS releasing #4 or at least it looks that way to me.

I think the holding on to #4 the longest pattern is the one that a certain someone says . . . . have your elbow seek your navel and have your head bob backwards as a result of having to get so much axis tilt to actually get to the ball . . .and then rotate the face to the ground and call it "hinging" or maintaining a flat left wrist. It is the one that raped me . . .

Low point?
 

When exactly is # 4 out of ammo? Another plea for a centered head. Does a sway interfere with a players ability to swing the left arm across the chest?

12PB

PA#4 is releasing in that last image. I merely wanted to state that Hardy OPS golfers turn very fast in the early downswing and maintain a powerful torso rotation throughout the downswing. That means that any upper torso deceleration will be later - compared to a standard active pivot action swing - and therefore PA#4 release will delayed. However, the clubshaft will still be on plane during the time period that PA#4 is unreleased - because of the golfers bent-over posture and arm release angle.

Jeff.

Doyle figured out the secret to success. Homer wrote in his first newsletter, "To this day - and forever - that is the central theme of instruction under this system."
BTW I would never take that bet as Doyle emptied a lot of wallets over the years.

Jethro . . . See the pic 6-B-4-0 #2 . . . . it's basically spent when it's in line with the shoulder joint . . . 90 degrees . . . . so it's loaded then as the arm swings down it is releasing and released at 90.

I'd say that physical limitations and plane angle or just plain bad concepts (such as "I have to have width in my backswing") limit the left arm going across the chest. Not sure swaying would on the backstroke . . . HOWEVER I think HOLDING ON TO #4 can certainly result in Bobs and or Sways or uncocked right wrists because of a radius disruption or plane shift resulting from the hands being pulled under or over plane . . . you gotta figure out how to get the clubhead on the ball via some sort of compensation . . .

Jeff . . . much of this has to do with plane angle and how "deep" the hands go (which is also related to plane angle) . . . . Inorder for the pivot and hands to comply to the "flatter" plane angle and "deeper" hands . . . the pivot can be more "rotary" . . . because there is simply more out in that plane . . . .

However regardless of the plane angle there has to be some hip slide and releasing of #4 to comply with the plane . . . the steeper the plane the more slidy and faster #4 has to go just due to where the hands are in space relative to the ball. Spin to quick on a steep plane and you shatter Mr. Hogan's pane all to pieces. That being said . . . . Mr. Hogan released #4 FAST and went WAAAAAY forward with the hips . . . but he did pretty much whatever he wanted to do.

Notice how Henny went away! Better make sure if he does stop running that he and Allan understand they would need to share breakfast with us:sick:

P.S. we better make sure they die by the 17th hole otherwise we'll lose. Bring the tool chest with the hammer, tape, rope and bags- just in case

The heck with that . . . the hit happens before the end of 9 holes . . . they may make us buy lunch or something . . . We don't off both of 'em just A.D. . . . Remember Henny knows people there could be other opportunities . . . he suffers from short term memory loss among other deficiencies. Make sure you get all the dead 'possums out of your golf bag . . . Doyle's from Massatoofsets the stench will likely remind him of home.

Just a Minuteman
 

Say what???

Agreed. Like Totally.

Prior to TGM the Judge and I travelled to Florida to get some One Plane lessons. The pro there was not entirely Hardy based so I dont know how relative this is but I can tell you that afterwards I struggled with pulls , divots pointing left of the hole and the odd "s word". The Judge (hope he isnt reading this) suffered from the elbow saw take away (no EA) and an early rotation off his back foot in transition. Too much rotation , too early, roundhousing.

The teacher in question has one fine, fine swing and is a great guy but I can today see through my TGM eyes that his right hip is cleared, his weight is left and his axis is tilted.

And now, thanks be to Yoda (TBTY), so is mine. Straight Divots just flying down the fairway. Being a Nawthaner and having to replace the things, its making for a lot more walking.

O.B.

Warning: Results may vary. Any reference to axis tilt is in the context of the posters personal preference as implied, weight left and cleared right hip are however implored regardless of users chosen pattern.

I figured I get a rise outta you on that one!!!!

Bucket,
Those guys from Mass are delicate and wear pink - be very gentle with them. Now, if you want resilent, hard, strong men - then go to Maine!

New to TGM stuff. What is PP#4.

It is pressure point #4 -wherever the left arm touches the left side.

Can you explain a little more
 

Is it where the left arm touches the chest and what is (are) its role(s).

Right handed hitter: left hip socket extention
 

Several times I have heard Doyle state or pull on your left hip as you come into your aiming point, left hip socket extension. Can you please explain the purpose of this. I have a feeling its about releasing the club after the hands pass the ball.

At times I have the feeling of sliding to get to my aiming point,(hands past the left hip, uncocked) my head does not move. Trying to get the connection between the forward hip press move and left hip extention, when, where & why.

Thanks

Ben Doyle practices - what I can only describe as - Hip Action to Thrust the Power Package to Overcome COAM.

This Hip Action occurs at the end of the Sit Down. He can feel the increased Drag on the Power Package when the Clubhead begins to throwout into its own orbit and the Power Package slows. He uses a hard turn with his Left Hip to prevent the Hands from slowing during the Release Interval.

This procedure adds Mass to the Clubhead. So,its an Accelerating Force.

Move into the Sit down fairly quickly from the Top of the Swing to establish a greater amount of Left Hip/Left Shoulder Tension. As COAM occurs (or as the Power Package slows because of the Sit-down), an easing of the tension will be felt; and at this point, only by accelerating the Hip Turn, can you sustain the original Tension.

In other words, he sets up the Action with a Quick Start-down with very dead hands.

One way to learn this, is to position your Hands and Club at your Release Point - with your Hips Square to the Target Line - stay there motionless for a second - then, using Dead Hands, power the Power Package through Impact using only a Hip Turn. As that motion gets perfected, move to longer Strokes.

Good Luck.......:)

Go stick your head on a wall or in a door jamb . . . bend at your hips I mean really bend. Find out where the hip sockets actually are. Once you got that lay a shaft or a dowel or something right on the sockets. Make your backstroke pivot sloooooow. Note what happens as your turn your hips and keep your head stable . . . On the backstroke generally you're going to feel the right hip joint "extend" and the left one "flex". Now do the backstroke again focus on your hip and right knee joint. Do the back stroke and DON'T allow your right knee to extend or your right hip socket to extend . . . pay attention to the difficulty or ease of keeping your head in place and notice the range of motion you have. Now do the opposite . . . extend the knee and the right hip socket . . . what happens? Which one is easier?

Now do the same thing coming thru . . . . come down and pose impact . . . . you'll likely find/feel that your right hip socket is "flex" again to the level it was at address. Now as you slide your hips forward keeping your head on the wall . . . notice what your hip joints are doing . . . experiment with what allows your hips to go forward and turn the most paying attention to the hip sockets and left knee as well as your spine.

Do the thru swing and maintain the flex in your left knee . . . what does the range of motion result in? Can you keep turning? What happens to your hip sockets? Allow it to straighten . . . what happens to the range of motion? Can you extend the hip socket more?

Your limbs are a complicated apparatus . . . really focus on what they are doing . . . with regards to your pivot paying particular attention to the knees hips and spine.

here's an interesting study for you . . . Does Doyle do what he suggests? Have a look at the position of his hips and the amount of extention in the left hip (both hips really)? Look at where his right butt cheek is . . . . LOOK AT THE CLUBFACE!!! Compared to Hogan . . . Who's extending the socket the most? Who's hips are turned the most? Who's hips are more forward? Who's left knee extends the fastest? Who's head is moving back to create axis tilt? Who's head steady and is getting axis tilt by moving the hips forward?

Another observation . . . . People observe that Hogan "held the angle" more than anyone . . . YOU TELL ME WHO'S DOING THE HOLDING HERE?

Frame #3 in Doyles deal was my first introduction to the Golfing Machine . . . I tried to get that . . . achieved it . . . it has been without question THE WORST THING THAT EVER HAPPENED TO MY GOLF GAME . . . if someone tries to get you to get that much trigger delay . . . run like you hear banjo music . . . it did something unseemly to my game . . . I still can't get it out of my system even thoug I know it's wrong. You face has to do sooooo much you can hit the golf ball anywhere and I MEAN ANYWHERE.

compare Doyles frame #3 to the second pic of Hogan at a similar point in the stroke . . . if Doyle had taught Hogan to look like frame #3 . . . . he'd have never gotten outta the caddy yard. True DEATH MOVE. Notice how Doyles head is tilting back and his left arm gets all t-rex shrunk up . . . it has too . . . if he doesn't shrink up his radius the club is going to crash into the ground behind the ball. Doyle is not releasing any of the accumulators starting with #4 . . . he's getting to the ball by tilting his shoulders backwards . . . Accumulators RELEASE . . ACCUMULATORS RELEASE . . . see Hogan . . . . Hogan set a bunch of angle . . . and he RELEASED IT . . . somebody else is HOLDING ON . . . it's RELEASE 4-1-2-3 . . . not hold #4 hold #1 tilt back and flash #2 and flash #3.


LOOK AT THE FACE HERE!!!! IT'S LOOKIN AT THE FREAKIN GROUND!!!!!! His supporters will say "Awww come in he was 70 years old and he hit that ball a little fat." UH NO SIR . . . he may be 70 but he was strong enough in his hands to hang on to #2 with the club parallel to the ground with his hands mid body . . . this is what HAS TO HAPPEN. BANE OF MY GOLFING EXISTENCE. Sorry to get on my soap box . . . BUT THIS AIN'T THE GOLFING MACHINE!!!! Don't buy it ever.

Thanks - 12 piece, I agree with you as I have had trouble acomplishing this. The only thing that works is the left hip extension after impact. Tiger did talk about extending his left knee as fast as he could in his book "How I play Golf" but this thought does not help me, extension is an after thought after impact. Trying to connect pivot into impact postion to create additional distance.

I'm hitting irons farther when compared to my driver and wanting to find a little more distance. Example - 7 iron 160yards and driver 240 in the air.

Any thoughts on wiping the wall with your left hip. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNwSfz0_KDM

I really like that wall wiping deal . . . great image I think . . . I like it with the wall behind and head on the wall infront . . . good stuff IMO. Hips pull the right leg "straight" . . . Hockey stop . . . Not sure I like what the dude's arms and head do after impact . . . but pretty much nails the down to impact part IMO. Like it. From there the lead knee extends hips keep turning and extending from hip joints.

Hard to say on the driver . . . could be an equipment thing . . . could be a loft thing . . . ball position thing. hard to say there without seeing/knowing.

Without driving Bucket too nuts....

What Ben does works because of his grip. If you dont have a stronger left hand, I agree with your view - forget it - but if you do, you can add some serious mass to impact with that angle, and that hip motion.

His move is based on a grip taken 'naturally' at impact fix. His impact fix, the way the left hand hangs down to align the left arm wedge, and the right arm wedge.

I don't debate the usefulness of describing a F/L/V left wrist for many, but some may benefit from looking at things from the left arm wedge. That is what Ben is doing IMO.

Not saying that is good/bad, the way to do it, just that is what I see in his move.

Who has that much angle that late though . . . that you've ever heard of? Plus the face is looking at the ground.

Seems like a good way to swing if you wanna hit the ball low and don't care where it goes.

Lots of guys have that much angle, but the only reason Ben keeps it late is the amount of axis tilt hit adds.

Couples is the only person I can think of that grips it closer to how Ben does, and he's done alright (again, without as much axis tilt)

As long as the finish swivel is after both arms straight, the face can face the ground without issues.

Hey Bucket, those are great Pics.

I doubt that Ben Doyle ever hit a Shot Fat. The King of Snap Release. Someone should make a Movie about him. :salut:

Ben Hogan is the greatest Golfer to have ever lived. :)

I have to wonder whether Ben would have been even greater using the strong single action grip??

I'd argue the opposite on the axis tilt . . . Ben doesn't have that amount of lag because of his axis tilt . . . he tilts BACKWARDS because he has that much accumulator lag that late.

Not sure I'm buying this Sladwadski or whatever his name is for a model . . . . he's got a fairway a couple of hundred yards wide . . . and misses the whole dang thing sometimes . . . Next example please :)

AND . . . his face looks better'n ole Ben's . . . . Bottom line . . . Doyle flashes the face . . .

I'm shaking my head in disbelief. :laughing9

I had a three hour lesson with Ben about 2 years ago. I watched him do some pretty amazing things. I don't remember his grip. :laughing9

Like what D? Tell us about your lesson.

We're not allowed to threadjack. I want to hear more "Bucket Analysis".

I am sorry Ben Hogan not Ben Doyle! I should have been clearer.

D . . . .you of all people . . . who have been labled a "book literalist" at other less than amiable places on the net . . . you my friend a traditionalist . . . are defending that motion from a "purest" standpoint. I got the tapes . . . I've seen it. You tell me where that motion gets checks on 1-L.

The Machine is about uniform centered predictable motion . . . I ain't seeing it here . . .