Re: Just a few points
 

You are absolutely right here. This is an extreme elbow position, but is the ONLY way to both pull the shaft longitudinally AND hit the ball before low point using the right arm. This effectively rules out right arm swinging a driver because of potential injury. Right arm Swinging with an elbow in bat position isn't possible.

Consider reading 10-3-K again ...for the umpteenth time

That Right Arm Thingy.....
 

Everyone,

I'm not here to debate and/or argue about the swinging action with right arm acceleration.....all I know is it produces excellent golf shots (Driver to lob wedge) just like Mr. Tomasello indicates in his 1991 Golf Illustrated interview . When Lynn and the gang get things back up and running.....I believe you will be entertained by Mr. Tomasello's demonstration and comments about this highly controversial golf stroke motion/pattern….what ever it’s called!!!! I can tell you one thing….the full stroke that he is demonstrating is NO HITTING STROKE.

DG

The Finer Things
 

DG,

We sincerely thank you for asking us to share the upcoming video. As soon as we get the site back up, I'll transfer it to the computer and get it loaded on the site.

This is all about information sharing and learning. We are giving the Right Arm Swing it's full attention here and I hope we draw out all of it's finer details.

Bagger

Put your mind in your Right Forearm, keep your Head stationary, wind up and let it happen.
_________________
Yoda

I worked with TT more than anybody on this forum and the above is the crux of what he taught. Right arm swing? ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!!!!!! In Tom's swinging procedure, the left shoulder was the center of the swing...NOT THE RIGHT ELBOW!!!! His mantra was...withdraw the right hip, fold the right arm, straighten the right arm, withdraw the left hip. The right elbow NEVER was stressed as the center of the stroke...NEVER!!! In fact, the last paragraph on page 108, sixth edition, where referring to the right arm swing, Tom had me highlight it and bracket it with the words "FORGET IT".

Tom was a great ambassador of TGM and I will be eternally grateful for exposing me to such gems as the MOTIONLESS right wrist, the flying wedges, and the magic of the right forearm. He was light years ahead of most mainstream teaching then and NOW. However, that being said, I can tell you that his grasp of TGM paled in comparison to Lynn's.

With respect to Delaware, I worked with Tom before Dave's time with him, and perhaps he changed, but I doubt it strongly. I played a lot of golf with Tom and I know where he was mentally. (He was a great ball striker by the way!) Right arm participation is just as Yoda described in his analogy of the children throwing the ball... so beautifully simple. But, having the right elbow as the center of tyhe stroke makes little sense given the amount of radius power that is lost and the control that is sacrificed by the the diminished role of the flat left wrist. No offense meant, but I think that I provide an informed perspective.

EC

Thanks
 

EC:

Thanks for sharing your personal experience with TT. Your post has certainly cleared up a lot regarding TT/Right Arm Swing for me, and I'm sure it has for others too who hasn't had the privilege of being taught personally by TT.

I hope you will write more posts on TT and G.O.L.F. in the future!

Thanks again!

Good post man.

Love to hear from the "insiders."

-Paul

Like I've been saying Yoda.....just play the TAPE!!!

Eddie....do you use the motion that you described above today? It sounds like you have watched the Australia video!!!


I would have to believe the highlighting of section 7-19 with the phrase "FORGET IT" from Tomasello was in reference to elbow injury, not right arm acceleration...

I'll respond more later....I have a meeting to attend to.

DG

Withdrawing the right hip at the beginning of the backswing would be mean Tomasello promoted standard hip action versus delayed hip action....If one uses Standard Hip Action, the golfer will achieve an Angled Delivery Path which uses an elbow plane angle.....if you watch Tomasello swing a golf club in the Australia video and the May 1992 video...Tomasello is swinging on a Straight Line Delivery Path and a Turned Shoulder Plane angle.....and he used a right forearm takeaway....in the May 1992 video he also references the term a right arm pickup.....sounds like some confusion in regards to component variations!!!

EC what would you call the action of straightening the right arm??? In the Tomasello swing that is not being initiated from pivot thrust!!!

DG

Eddie Cox -- From The Pinehurst Sandhills -- The Real Deal
 

Thank you, Eddie, for this wonderful, personal, authoritative post.

In many ways on this site, we are documenting the evolution of Authorized Instruction in The Golfing Machine. Your contributions as an Instructor, Player and Educator on this site are considerable.

We are privileged to have you aboard.

Thank you, Eddie, for this wonderful, personal, authoritative post.

In many ways on this site, we are documenting the evolution of Authorized Instruction in The Golfing Machine. Your contributions as an Instructor, Player and Educator on this site are considerable.

We are privileged to have you aboard.
_________________
Yoda


Actually it is all of us who are priveleged to have been able to learn from your vast knowledge. As I told you once...you OWN the information... conceptually, theoretically, intellectually, and physically. I'm sure that all here can appreciate how truly fortunate they are to have been able to learn from the BEST!

EC

DG,

I have watched the Austrailian tape, in fact I bought it from you!

When I worked with Tom, I had no TGM knowledge or experience. I took every word that he said as gospel. What I have come to learn over these many years is that Tom was actually finding his way through TGM and his thoughts were in a constant state of flux and evolution. I can tell you that in 1987, Tom had completely adopted a pivot controlled hands approach to his teaching. Page 223, sixth edition, last sentence 1st paragraph, he had me strike "Educated hands control the pivot" and replace it with "Pivot controls the hands". And on page 61, at the bottom of the page I have his note: "We are using pivot controlled hands!! Having the pivot "in charge" is easier." He was huge on learning the stick drill, and like I referenced earlier, I can still hear his mantra..."withdraw the right hip, fold the right arm, straighten the right arm, withdraw the left hip."
When he said straighten the right arm, it was more like STRAIGHTEN the right arm!!!!! RIGHT NOW!!! IMMEDIATELY!!!! ( All the while maintaining a bent right wrist all the way to the finish.) Incidentally, in 12-2-0, he changed the Shoulder turn component to "Rotating", the Hip Action to "Standard", the loading action to "Random Sweep, the Power Package Delivery Path to "Top Arc", and the Power Package Release to "Auto Snap".

The last time that I worked with Tom, probably around mid 1990 or so...he was into CIRCLE PATH DELIVERY for all shots. In looking back, I think that his association with Peter Croker was the explanation for this new approach. This is a couple of years before you worked with Tom, and perhaps by then he had develped a penchant for right arm swinging.

End of story...that's all I know.

EC

The lesson is this:

Follow, learn and understand the Basic Patterns of Hitting and Swinging in 12-1 and 12-2 before customising your own variations. That applies even if you think you know a lot about TGM. Only until you really know what you're doing and you really understand the jigsaw, then start customising. Even then, be very careful of what you're doing. Otherwise, you are much much better off following Homer's Pattern. Afterall, he's spent 28 years looking for it.

After rewatching the Australian tape again, it's clear that his Swinging procedure is nothing more than a standard 3-barrel inert left arm Swinging procedure with standard wrist action and horizontal hinging. The "long right arm" is just the normal result of an ordinary 3-barrel Swing which goes to a both arms straight position after separation. This Swing is not a right arm Swing. The right forearm has a downplane MOTION in the standard 3-barrel Swing, but it's right shoulder flywheel ACTION which produces it.

EC,

Today, I started to listen to the tapes I made during my three-day school with Tommy (this time 12 years ago)....what he taught me was....right forearm (right forearm Takeaway which moves the shoulders which in turn moves the hip (Tom taught me delayed hip-action), right hip, right forearm, left hip. Its the same move he used on the Australia tape...

Tommy definitely talked about starting to un-cock the right elbow at the start of the downswing (magic of the right forearm)....

Joe,

I'm sorry your wrong....the right forearm (the magic of the right forearm) is controlling the WHOLE motion...from start up to finish. The body responds to the action of the right forearm...I suggest going back and re-watch the whole video series...

DG

Eddie....you are the man! Thank you for your insight - it is invaluable.

And Yoda knew Tommy for over 20 years, Tommy playing the violin and doing his singing. If Yoda says it aint so, well, it just aint so!!!

That being said, DG...by all means, right arm swing...just take it easy making every thread a 'right arm swing' thread!!!

Patrick

Playin' And Singin'
 

Patrick,

Tommy played the organ, not the violin. When he lived in Marietta, Georgia, he had one in his living room, and let me tell ya...

The man did love to sing!

Thats it!!! My bad. I knew he was a singer!!! Good stuff!!

EC

Thanks for the background. I love the history of TGM.


mike

DG,

Then I'll ask again, in spite of your previous refusals to answer - how does the right forearm move? It has to be from right shoulder flywheel action OR right tricep thrust. There are no other mechanisms available to move the right forearm downplane.

Right Shoulder responds to the action of the Right Forearm...Right Triceps respond to the action of the Right Forearm....there I said it (and I have been saying FOR A LONG TIME). For the umpteenth time it's called the MAGIC OF THE RIGHT FOREARM.

For Tom Tomasello October 1993...driving range Deer Track Golf Resort.

Backstroke sequence: Right Forearm (Takeaway), Shoulders, Hips (clearing right hip).

Downstroke sequence: Right Forearm (start down), Shoulders, Hips (pay attention to the left hip it must keep moving...sliding action motion at the beginning of the downstroke (in response to the right forearm moving downplane), rotating hip action once the right arm reconnects to the body, right elbow in front of the right hip.)

DG

OK, what causes this right forearm "action" that EVERYTHING is responding to?

The GOLFER... naturally....and his/her right forearm!!! The proceeding action would be birth from his or her mother and father....just kidding (Joe, we should make this a comedy routine).

DG

I do not feel my right forearm move. I feel my hands move, my hips move, my elbow even. The right forearm is pure magic but I can't start it without the pivot, hips and hands moving first. The right forearm is a major alignment tracing the Plane Line, I don't want to move it out of place without my lane producer- pivot hips.


And as you make mention to often,
Penick's magic move isn't an arm move first. It is a hand shift, elbow relocation, with a simultaneous weight shift or slide.

just my two cents within the family of devoted machiners

Mike,

Right Arm Swinging and Three Barrel Hitting use the right forearm to initiate startdown.

DG

I bump to start when I hit, I "feel" as if my pivot has ended before the arms strike downward.

Mike listen (read) carefully....

3 barrel hitting - right forearm initiates the downswing.

4 barrel hitting - Hip Slide initiates the downswing.

You compared apples and oranges...In my previous post, I said right arm swinging and 3 barrel hitting...nothing mentioned about 4 barrel hitting.

DG

Right Forearm does not initiate the Downstroke for 3 Barrel Hitting.

What you feel like is happening and what actually happens (or should happen) are two different things.

Tongzilla,

You left us hanging....what starts the downswing in 3 barrel hitting?....then tell us the difference between 3 barrel and 4 barrel hitting???

DG

Yoda,

Please write out the stroke components for a 3 barrel hit and a 4 barrel hit!!! If 12-1-0 represents what you teach as a 3 barrel hit, then just show us the whole 4 barrel hitting pattern or what components change between the two procedures.

Thanks,

DG

Who left who hanging? The topic of this thread is the right arm swing. Now you're deflecting attention to hitting, rather than answering my question.

Joe,
I answered your question hours ago....backup a few posts!

DG

This is DG's last answer to my question of what causes the action of the right forearm which DG claims that both the right shoulder and the right tricep RESPOND to!

It's the GOLFER and before this answer, the answer was simply MAGIC!

And so there it is - DG doesn't give a straight answer, either because he can't or won't.

Here's what I can say about the so-called TT right arm swing:

1) Tomasello is teaching a 3-barrel inert left arm swinging procedure - at least he says it's a swing, and it looks like it when he makes an actual pass at the ball. He uses standard wrist action and emphasizes keeping the left hip moving through impact to keep the left wrist from bending. When he demos the swing without hitting a ball, he gets to the delivery position and forcefully extends his right arm down and out with the right tricep, saying "HIT IT HIT IT HIT IT", but I don't think he does this when he actually hits a ball. But even if he does, this is not a right arm swing, but rather a hit or a swit. This right arm extension is found in all TGM patterns - it is a result of CF in a swing and intentionally done in a hit(which TT calls a "punch"). I don't see anywhere on the video where he even mentions a "right arm swing".

2) We don't know what DG is doing because he won't answer my question.

We are making some progress here even though we have some terminology issues to resolve. Just so everyone is aware, I have my finger on the lock thread key, so I'm hoping cool heads prevail and we can continue seeking enlightenment!
Let's keep in mind, the name of this thread is referencing Homers definition of the Right Arm Swing. We are attempting to reconcile Mr. Tomasello's pattern(s) with it. Thus far, there doesn't appear to be a correlation, but we will present more evidence with a new video soon.

Thanks Guys,

Bagger

Bagger,

I bet you can image I'm holding back big time at this point...

Joe,

My suggestion at this point is for you to go back through the ENTIRE thread re-read each post....and see if you can come up with the answer...if that doesn't help, I would go through the ENTIRE Tomasello series (take the chapters in order) and see if that helps, if not, I would stop the pain by forgetting about the right arm swing...

Sorry for the confusion. Maybe the next Tomasello video (The May 1992 tape) will help...

DG

point of joe's question(s)
 

...i think the point of mj's question is that the muscles of the right forearm can't act on the right forearm to produce the down plane motion that DG is describing...therefore some other body part's muscle(s) must do it, even if what DG senses are focusing on is the right forearm movement...from my pov it doesn't matter if one feels like the forearm moves the rest or the rest moves the forearm as long as the ball goes where one wants it to...cheers!

-hcw

Lets show the tape.

Let Lynn make that decission. There might be a good reason he hasn't.

Video Vault
 

I've sent the video to Bagger. It will be up toward the end of next week.