So to sum up the #3 acc. Angle which can be changed by plane angle puts a limit on the release point but as long as you are at whichever limit it is you are snap releasing.

Sorry guys if this has been covered but it appears (I have given some of the recent comments about releases in this thread a fairly cursory glance) as if there is an assumption that an elbow plane requires more #3 accumulator.

The #3 accumulator is the angle formed by the left arm and club shaft, to quote: "Power Accumulator #3 is formed by the angle established between the Clubshaft and the Left Forearm."

If the left wrist is level (that, if I'm not mistaken is an impact condition recommendation because it gives more support and control for impact) would this not create the same angle between the left wrist and forearm (assuming you are using the same club) and if so is there any requirement that wrist conditions should be changed due to plane angle. I can't seem to remember any place in the book where it says so or is contained therein through "obvious inference."

There is a wide spread misconception that to swing on a shallow plane, you must come into impact with non-level left wrist, like a left handed topspin backhand in tennis. As you said, the left wrist condition at impact is level, regardless of down swing plane.

Comrade,

You are correct that the Left Wrist, normally, should be Level at Impact.

But you can still create different amounts of Accumulator #3 (different angles between the Clubshaft and the Left Forearm) by placing the Clubshaft more towards the roots of the fingers of the Left Hand (for more acc. #3) or more towards the Heel of the Left Hand (for less acc. #3) or even in the Cup of the Left Hand (for no acc. #3).

I'm not suggesting that you can't have more or less #3 Accumulator. My original point was it seems that in this thread there "is an assumption that an elbow plane requires more #3 Accumulator." Does setting the shaft on the elbow plane necessitate placing the club in the fingers creating more Accumulator #3 angle ?

Elbow Plane is flatter than Turned Shoulder Plane. In order to set the Clubshaft on the Elbow Plane you need more Accumulator #3 angle than to set the Clubshaft on the TSP.

There are basically two ways (6-B-3-B) to achieve this:

1. By changing the position of the Clubshaft in your Left Hand.

2. By changing your Perpendicular Wrist Conditions (4-B).

#1 is what I tried to explain in my previous post, and it's the recommended way. The exact position of the Clubshaft in your Left Hand will depend on various factors. So you may not necessarily have to go as far as to hold the Clubshaft in your fingers to be on Elbow Plane, but it should be more towards the fingers for Elbow Plane and more away from the fingers for the steeper Planes.

#2 is possible, but not recommended. It would require a Cocked Left Wrist at Impact to put the Clubshaft on Elbow Plane. That would make Impact Alignments difficult to control. And it would restrain the release of Accumulator #2, resulting in a loss of power.

I'm happy that I've finally read something about matching the plane with the PA3 angle! For a time I thought I'm nuts...someone else understand, and they're more than two!...hehe

Do any of you guys actually use a big PA3 angle on your swings?

i grip the club in the fingers of the left hand with a level left wrist at impact, snap release

Sorry for the lack of nuance in describing the grip as being "in the fingers" rather than '"more" in the fingers'. :oops:

When Mr. Kelley writes in 7-2 -4, "move the Stance Line and adjust the Knee Bend, the Waist Bend and the #3 Accumulator Angle (per 6-B-3-B) until the Left Wrist is Flat, Level and Vertical (4-0, 7-8 ) with the Clubface "Soled" and aligned per 2-J-1 and 7-6," should the words "move the Stance Line and adjust the Knee Bend, the Waist Bend" have been omitted ?

When I asked the question (Does setting the shaft on the elbow plane necessitate placing the club in the fingers creating more Accumulator #3 angle ?), I guess I had in mind this. Is there more to setting the plane angle than simply the way the club is placed, more or less, in the fingers per 6-B-3-B ? And if so, is it possible to change the plane angle without changing the grips placement in the fingers (more or less) and thus the Accumulator #3 angle ? It appears there is.

That IMO would be faking or just manufacturing it. You would have to snap release, move the low point forward or both to make it work, which for me is power leak on all PAs except probably PA1 if you use it.

No, why should they?

Yes, absolutely. Elbow Plane requires a different posture than Turned Shoulder Plane.

No. TSP is a steeper Plane than Elbow Plane, so your Hands at Impact Fix will be higher when your Club is on the TSP. This requires more Accumulator #3 (either by changing the position of the Club in your Left Hand or by uncocking the Left Wrist) to get the Club on Plane.

Set up on Elbow Plane and take your Grip according to 7-2. Then set up on Turned Shoulder Plane and again take your Grip according to 7-2. The position of the Club in your Left Hand will be different.

Would you really "restrain" the #2 Accumulator since you would presumably be going to fully Uncocked at Follow Through. And if so would not the power loss be negligible ?

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that the real problem would be that the golf club at impact would not have the support that a level left wrist would have give it.

I think it is also worth keeping in mind this distinction about the Cocked Left Wrist: "The Wrist is Cocked at any point beyond LEVEL toward the maximum cocked condition."
So the most minimal amount of Wrist Cock is still cocked, although not Level.

Wristcock shortens the Swing Radius. As the Clubhead moves from minimum to maximum Swing Radius, its Surface Speed increases geometrically (2-P). If the Left Wrist is still Cocked at Impact the Clubhead will have acquired less Surface Speed (MPH).

I agree with you that this effect may be negligible if the Left Wrist Cock at Impact is only minimal. It will be more pronounced if you have considerable Left Wrist Cock at Impact.

I also agree with you that a Cocked Left Wrist at Impact will generally be more detrimental to Geometry than to Physics.

This is great stuff....all the posters on this thread

I have a question for all...what's the rationale again for a level L wrist at impact? Why not fully uncocked? Although for me a level L wrist and full uncock is exactly the same (I don't know, I have freaky L wrist?), why aim for level L wrist when the L wrist would want always to be fully uncocked? So why not prepare for the full uncock?

Thanks for the link Par71. Why should impact be before Full Extension of Primary Lever (full uncock)? At that time (impact), PA2 wouldn't matter anyway coz it's PA3 that matters (PA2 power being transferred to clubhead by PA3)?

That’s the Law of the Flail (2-K). The Clubhead is accelerating (Centrifugal Acceleration) until it becomes in line with the Left Arm (Full Extension). Then it settles into Centrifugal Momentum.

Accumulator #2 provides the Downward Motion for your Three Dimensional Impact (2-C-0).

But you are free to execute Impact during Full Extension (with an Uncocked Left Wrist). Homer said that "produces a 'soft' Impact and is very useful simplification" (2-P).

Law of the Flail applies to just PA2 (a Flail doesn't gave a roll/tumble), correct? And PA2 precedes and causes PA3 (Roll TRANSFER Power), correct?

So even if PA2 is spent, PA3 is still doing it's thing. So, even if you reach full extension/uncock at impact or bit before it, the sweet spot is still up to speed as PA3 (and PA4, and PA1 if you use it, as a matter of fact) isn't spent until after impact?

That is a misconception. A common flail (with a thong) definitely shows turn and roll. The golfer's flail is "only somewhat flail-like" (because of the way the hinge pin works). But even the golfer's flail can Cock and Uncock and Turn and Roll (2-K). Study pictures 2-K #4 and #5: They both represent the golfer's flail.

PA #2 may precede PA #3 or not (Sequenced Release vs. Simultaneous Release). But PA #3 may not precede PA #2.

PA #2 does not cause PA #3. Nor does it release PA #3.

The idea is that more force is applied to the ball when it is struck with an object that is still accelerating at Impact, rather than with an object that - although moving with speed - has already stopped to accelerate. That applies to all Power Accumulators. So, for maximum power, no Power Accumulator should be fully expended before Impact.

Ok.

How about the power being transferred by PA3 (Roll Transfer Power), where did that come from? If that came from PA2, would it be correct to say that PA2 power would be transferred by PA3 efficiently even if PA2 is fully released already at impact?

I see what you are getting at, Vincenzo. But no matter how you word it, I cannot agree with it. A fully released PA2 at Impact is not the most efficient way to transfer your power. :)

Yes, I understand you. Just need more explanations to fully understand it all.

I find that if I fully uncock my L wrist at address, I NEVER get the sweetspot under plane. NEVER. So for me that's very important. I could give it all I've got and not worry about hitting the ground hard. All I have to do is keep my head still.

I guess power wouldn't be sacrificed much if PA2 gets fully released exactly at impact? I know you couldn't agree, but the way I see it for now, no power leak if PA2 fully released at impact as PA3 is still there to transfer power from PA2.

If PA2 is not fully released by impact, there's always the work to manage the down element. If fully uncocked already, this will be eliminated. AoA is managed too.

Oh yes it does matter, because uncocking through impact and not just to impact provides resistance to clubhead velocity drop off due to impact energy losses. Most of the clubhead velocity is provided by the LW(PA2) being uncocked by pivot power(PA4). PA3 is minimal in comparison, Throwout being principally a delivery mechanism.

svs, the golf stroke is not a left handed top-spin backhand, no matter how badly you want it to be. :snooty:

No MJ, not a top spin L handed back hand. A L handed backhand powered thru not just by CF and Pivot Power (PA4) but also by PP3, Clubhead Lag Pressure, PA1 and Rotational Power (PA3).

I respectfully disagree with clubhead velocity drop due to impact energy losses. I'm not saying PA2 fully spent before impact. I'm saying fully spent right at impact, but not after. PP3, PA1 and PA3 would still be there releasing the clubhead (throw out). Yoda himself believes in Rotational Power (PA3). And I think this is the reason Homer prefers a four barrel 4-1-2-3 sequence.

IMO, aiming for a Level L wrist at impact, at the least, brings out a host of other problems due to Sweetspot being aimed to be under plane at impact. I mean, a Level L wrist is essentially an under plane Sweetspot at impact. So you have to deal with that, and IMO the actions needed to deal with it causes power leak.

So, why not just get the L wrist fully uncocked already at address, let it be that right at impact by powering thru with 4-1-2-3. This is the only way that IMO we can all achieve PP3, Clubhead Lag Pressure and Flat L Wrist at impact. PA4 starts everything, then PA1 causes the release of the club head (PA2 and PA3). A four barrel stroke. Homer is right all along.

Clubhead velo loss due to energy loss at impact and level left wrist at impact are in the Yellow book, so you're disagreeing with Homer. :think:

Ok...:BangHead:

Care to provide the references?

You need to get the book - I recommend the 6th edition.

I have the book, the new one though.

Warning
 

Thanks to my authorized instructor i now have a golf swing that is so easy powerful and accurate. This is a warning no other pro has a chance against this

He should be worth mentioning?
Has he done any YouTube videos?

No youtube videos just his website gregsmithgolf.com

Let's see it - front on and down the line.

I dont have any high frame rate footage of it yet when i get another lesson ill post it up. Played today on a tricky course (73.5 rating 7200 yards) with 30 mph gusts all day missed three shots all day. It was four hours of just trying to pick the right club the right target and aim i never leaned on a shot never made any uncontrolled motions. Even with not having to worry about making a bad swing all day it was still difficult to score with the wind and shot 74 i made 3 definite mental errors that cost me at least four strokes and probably made a couple more mental errors im not aware of but for the first time i really managed the course properly and every single shot looked for the path of least resistance and most margin for error

Are you using a Right Forearm Takeaway or a Shoulder Turn Takeaway?

Right forearm takeaway

Shot three under the front nine tonight the golf courses defenses could not survive the relentless consistency and strategy. I figured out how to out think the golf course this is big for me. I didnt play well hit only two good shots one drive and one iron shot, didnt make a putt outside of eight feet. Because i selected the path of least resistance on every shot the course lost. Im walking through thr motion of thr swing now right before i went out my instructor gave me the game plan and it worked perfectly. These golf courses will have no chance now that i know how to think my way around them and make controlled consistent motions each and every time. Everything my instructor has been telling me is finally sinking in and im applying it it only gets better from here

Shot 67 on sunday with no driver windy conditions tees all the way back and tricky pins this course hosted a nationwide qualifier several years back

impressive