I'm taking about a generic term called snap release and D is using capitals - Snap Release. I assume then that HK has tied delivery path to release type. When a player gets to a deep release position, about .06 secs from impact, before the LW starts uncocking, that's a snap release in my world, regardless of hand path or down swing plane. :thumleft:

]Here's a homework assignment compare the lag in these three pictures the first one is sergio the other two are me one with punch elbow one with pitch

The biggest light bulb ever just went off in my head hit some golf balls into the woods at 4 am lol have never felt this before in the swing its so simple... I would definitely call it the total picture biggest break through I have ever had

[quote=whip;95474]]

Here's a homework assignment compare the lag in these three pictures the first one is sergio the other two are me one with punch elbow one with pitch


"Lag" is the slight bend in the clubshaft caused by a constant rate of acceleration against Clubhead inertia.

You're simply asking "Who has more 'Right Wrist Cock'"?

Which picture shows the most trigger delay which most readers would know as 'lag' which by the way can be defined also by how much trigger delay they have not only dwfined by the clubhead lagging the butt end. The clubhead lags to the hands lag is just something sragging something else and by how much you know what I was referring to.

It's time for you to understand something. Forget what the TV Golf Pundits tell you. They're knowledge relies on "Voodoo" which rhymes with "Dogpoo".

The Clubhead always trails the Hands the "Correct" amount when the Right Wrist is, and remains, "Bent and Level". Almost 90 Degrees, even at Impact. The distance from the Clubhead to the Right Elbow NEVER changes until Both Arms Straight. Then and Only then, will this distance change.

1.L #8
Trigger delay is like anything else in the Golf Swing. It's a choice but is not chosen. It's determined by other alignments.

Bingo!
And that should be the beginning of the conversation!

HB

:BangHead: :BangHead: :BangHead: :BangHead:

Daryl, I have found your posts not only to be more and more condescending but GROSSLY INACCURATE AND MISREPRESENTATIVE OF THE BOOK AND OF HOMERS HARD WORK. Your commentary seems to get more personal with me, I'm not sure if it's because I try to clarify all of your miscommunications and misconceptions. Ever since Lynn has taken a less active role on the forum, it appears that a lot of members are under the FALSE IMPRESSION that you are the final authority on the golfing machine. I believe it is important to not leave members with the notion that all of these miscommunications and misconceptions on your part are accurate representations of the work of homer kelley. In the future it would help all of us if you would reference in quotes relevant passages of the book to support your interpretations or ideas. If you happen to disagree with the book flatly, that's fine. Just present your evidence against the passages you disagree with in a logical, scientific manner. You are PARADING around this site mimicking homer's writing style and using reference numbers when half the time you are just making stuff up. STOP DOING THAT.

Bro I don’t care about your poo or doo… or the tv guys…
NO DARYL, IT’S TIME FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND, let me clear things up for you…

First off I will say this one is a typo, give you the benefit of the doubt that you would actually think the word proportion makes any sense there. The correct quote is ” no PORTION of the lever assembly…”
NOT proportion….
Also this quote is completely unrelated to the topic…
You claim that the still picture from my video is not showing a snap release here:
You were referring to these pictures:



( the first one is Sergio Garcia, the second ones are me with slightly more trigger delay than Sergio while both still arriving at a flat left wrist at impact with the clubshaft pointed at the left shoulder)
Next you say this:

SORRY BUT THIS IS ALL COMPLETELY WRONG and once again you mimic homer’s writing style but unfortunately not his intellect. Where in the book does it say you can’t have a snap release on the elbow plane?

LET ME CLEAR THINGS UP FOR YOU DARYL

THERE IS IN FACT NO PASSAGE IN THE BOOK THAT PAIRS THE ELBOW PLANE WITH A RANDOM SWEEP RELEASE. You must be reading ‘the daryl machine’ that’s a different book…

Delivery path and release type are in fact NOT PAIRED

RELEASE TYPE AND RELEASE POINT IN FACT ARE paired here(from summary of ch.10):


This above lists the different release types and release points. NOWHERE IN THE BOOK DOES HOMER PAIR RELEASE POINTS WITH PLANE ANGLE, OR DELIVERY PATHS WITH RELEASE TYPES, PERIOD. End of story. Why would he it makes zero sense… why would the delivery path determine the release type?

Could I use a straight line delivery path with a full sweep release? ABSOLUTELY, why not? The line of the hands are not changing, I can uncock the wrist, release the accumulators straight from the top on any plane angle. Use any release type that pairs with its release point aka automatic snap, non-automatic snap, non-automatic full sweep, automatic random sweep, non-automatic random sweep. You can use straight line delivery path with any of these. You could also use an angled line delivery path with any of these.

Looks like there are choices, huh weird, I never would have thought that tgm had options!?!?!?!?!crazy!!!

You claim that an elbow plane snap release is not possible here:

And here:
sorry you are wrong.

MAYBE YOU WERE CONFUSED BY THE PORTION I BOLDED OF THIS PASSAGE:


I take it you assumed because it says it requires an earlier release you assumed it meant earlier than snap, and also assumed earlier release was referring to random sweep and only random sweep? In fact it does not say that at all and you are doing A LOT of assuming and once again you are completely incorrect and people think you know what you’re talking about. YOU DON’T

Because of the greater angle of the #3 accumulator, The clubhead covers more area in space as you turn and roll the left hand this is why you must release sooner than a more upright plane angle. To see this in action, Set your hands flat level and vertical and hold the club in the fingers of the left hand as normal, notice the angle between the left arm and clubshaft, this is the #3 accumulator. Keeping your hand in the same place and turn and roll it. Notice how the clubhead moves in space yet the wrist stays in one place, how far it moves in space is determined by this angle. Now grip the club in the palm so the club sits at a plane that is in-line with the left arm, again turn and roll the left wrist in place notice how the clubhead doesnt move in space, it doesn’t cover as much space because the angle is less, in this case it is zero, and therefore can be released later because it has less space to cover as its released.

HOWEVER this does not mean that because the release on the elbow plane is earlier than the turned shoulder plane, that the lag pressure point cannot be “driven through a snap release as if there were to be no release at all” AKA automatic snap release. YOU ABSOLUTELY can have a snap release on the elbow plane or a sweep or whatever you want. It in fact IS A CHOICE and is NOT DETERMINED by other components

Did you think Hogan was on the turned shoulder with his automatic snap release? How about Sergio? They aren’t THEY ARE IN FACT ON THE ELBOW PLANE WITH A SNAP RELEASE
Do you think you can’t sweep release on a turning shoulder plane? The angle at which the club is moving has no relation to the release point. You can use any angle, any release point. Why couldn’t you? Show me in the book where it says that an elbow plane cannot have a snap release show me where they are paired, here’s a clue. THEY AREN’T
Where is the part about plane angle? Oh that’s right, it’s not there!

this passage is for you Don’t even start me on the rest of your posts. They are minefields of inaccuracies and misrepresentations.

OH I LOVE THIS! YOU’RE MAKING VIDEOS! THE DARYL MACHINE!
Yikes…..:confused1 :confused1 :confused1 :confused1

Stop whining
You're so sensitive. Taking my comments out of context and adding your own interpretation doesn't help. It only shows how out of control you've become. Trying to discredit me will not fix your problem or your understanding of the concept.

I'm not against you or anyone.

Non-Automatic vs. Automatic Release.
Non-Automatic is used for all Non-Pivot Strokes and "sometimes" when using an "Aiming Point". Automatic Release occurs in Pivot Strokes when "Mechanics" (force and alignment combinations) cause the Right Elbow to Straighten.

Because the Right Wrist is Always Level and Bent, the Right Elbow has control of the Left Wrist Uncocking (Mass based Swings). You can view release as the "Left Wrist Uncocking" but it only Uncocks if the "Right Elbow Straightening" allows.


Snap Release occurs when the Right Elbow travels to the End of the Straight Line Delivery Path when then it is Forced to Straighten because it reached its "End Of The Line". The Hands continue Downplane and consequentially, the Clubhead begins its "Pulley" acceleration cycle.

You can't perform a Snap Release when using the Elbow Plane. It will always be a Random Sweep Release. (don't confuse "Pulley Size" with Release Types. They're only vaguely related)

SOOOOOOOO. When "YOU", and I mean "You", BANG your Elbow into your Right Side (Mechanics), as you ALWAYS do, and your Right Elbow BEGINS to Straighten (Mechanics), as it always does, YOU HAVE TRIGGERED RELEASE (Right Elbow Straightening - more Mechanics). Release Occurred because you Stopped the Elbow from moving (Mechanics), not because it reached the End of a Straight Line Delivery Path.

Furthermore, there is no "Straight Line Delivery Path" in an Elbow Plane. So, there is also "No" Snap Release.

IT'S Named "RANDOM" because the Release Point Changes with each different Length Club and may occur in a different spot for different Players, NOT because YOU have a VARIABLE Release Point. Of course, you can always use an "Aiming Point". The Aiming Point works because it controls Right Shoulder Location. And, in "Pivot Strokes" the Right Shoulder Location has influence over Elbow Location Release Point. Although "Aiming Point" has some valuable application, its only a substitute.

sorry buddy you're wrong the delivery line does not determine the release

its not named random because the release point changes with each club the release point ALWAYS changes with each club especially with a snap release

a snap release with a driver MUST be at a release point sooner than a snap release with a wedge

I was going to make a well supported rebuttal to your inaccurate statements from your last post and it realized I seriously do not have the time to point out and support evidence against just how many absurd statements you make, literally every statement you make is some new elaborate completely misunderstood explanation and when I question u on it u avoid it directly so I can see I'm wasting my time with you I can only hope that those who do know the book well will confirm to other readers not to take daryls word on tgm as gospel because the stuff ain't right dude!

There is so much wrong with every part of everything you are saying theres not enough time in my day to address all your errors

Didn't intend to "trigger" a "Pood" fight. (puns intended)

Reread my post:

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/post95481-487.html

I believe the ESSENTIALS have a higher standing than the IMPERATIVES:
Release comes from Zone #1 Elements 12-17, and contain the Essentials.
That is where the release adjustment is best made.(hands control remains)
Adjusting release in Zone #2 or #3 by a violation of the Imperatives- not so good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5c_onhzgvcY

Just my thoughts

HB

The imperatives are imperative. They are the "sameness" what allgolfers must have to not be a duffer once you get the imperatives start working on "the differences" the details of the way the components are interrelated within the essentials.

The essentials must fit the stroke alignments
 

Not exactly what I ment.

It is best to have command of the Essentials and how to apply them to the stroke pattern intended.

The "youtube ad" shows, with humor, what I mean.

HB

Huh, ya I didn't understand the ad but i follow u. Just tell me this hungry bear do you think the angle that the golfer swings on dictates the point at which its released? Do you think hogan did not have a snap release? Trying to see other members view on the subject at hand...

You missed the point.

The Turned shoulder plane has a "3" stage acceleration sequence. The Straight Line Delivery Path, "Hand Acceleration", is stage 2, which occurs before the Pulley (Stage 3 Clubhead Acceleration). A Snap Release occurs when the hands reach the end of the straight line path (stage 2) and then, and only then, does phase 3, clubhead acceleration begin.

The Elbow Plane, has only a "2" stage acceleration sequence. Hand acceleration and pulley release occur almost simultaneously. There is no straight line into the pulley. Hand and Clubhead acceleration is a single event.

Homer should not have stated

One of the Key statements is "This procedure drives the Lag Pressure Point", referring to the "Always" driving Right Forearm using the #3 PP to sense clubhead lag along a straight line delivery path.

He should at least included: "as if you are not trying to Release because you are not using a release point". The distinction is very important. It would be more accurate if stated: "as though there were no release point because an Aiming Point is not used to trigger release, but rather the Snap release is triggered as the result (by product) of an alignment".........."The Pulley is forced to begin when the Hands reach the end of the straight line delivery path".....


The Below statement is crazy. Delay the Automatic Trigger until you Trigger? As long as the Hands still arrive in Impact location and position at Impact? Gibberish. You can delay the trigger in Sweep and Random Sweep but you can't delay the trigger past the point that an automatic snap release triggers the Clubhead. I would venture to guess that the below statement 10-24-D was included to make the theory look complete. Unless he's referring to a #2 PP Swing (not the Driving as in 10-24-E). But then, without a straight line delivery path it would not be a Snap Release, although it is a very definite "Whiplash" feeling Release.

He may have been better off if he named this Release Pair "Whiplash Release",
"Automatic Whiplash" and "Non-Automatic Whiplash".

Snap = as late as possible
Full Sweep = as early as possible
Random Sweep = anywhere in between

Non-Automatic Snap Release is just the latest Release than can still be deliberately triggered.

It has an earlier Release Point than Automatic Snap Release (because you have to trigger Release by a deliberate maneuver before an Automatic Release occurs). But it is the latest Release Point for the Non-Automatic Releases (the far end of the spectrum of possible Non-Automatic Release Points).

nowhere did u explain why you cannot have a snap release on the elbow plane. which is your claim that i keep addressing and you keep ignoring, now you are even saying what homer shouldnt have lol now that's funny.....

the point is when u make a claim that is incorrect and i prove you wrong and you dont have a counter argument what value can you serve on the subject?

Actually I made it very clear. Elbow plane only has a 2 stage Acceleration Sequence and no straight line delivery path.

YOU and others like you, are the reason why others have stopped posting on LBG.com. When trying to have a reasonable discussion, you're very insulting and disrespectful of the efforts of others. You've proven to not be worth the time or effort.

No disrespect, but I think I'd agree more with Daryl.

Once you're on elbow plane, release starts. Hogan is in elbow plane very early, so he's releasing very early or random sweeping. Hogan snap releasing is IMO an illusion due to his use of a big PA3 angle.

If you are already on elbow plane and not yet releasing, that means you're still on longitudinal acceleration of the shaft, which means you're still shifting down and eventually will be on R knee plane...lol

Dammit Daryl sir, what a lot of excellent info you posted in here! It's like a crash course on TGM!

I don't agree with that. And I'm fairly sure Homer Kelley would have said that you can have Snap Release on an Elbow Plane.

Hand Acceleration is the entire interval from the end of the Start Down until the start of Release - Section 8, Downstroke. With a Double Shift and Angled Line Delivery Path, both the vertical path of the Hands down to Elbow Plane AND the straight line path of the Hands from the angle towards the Aiming Point are Hand Acceleration and precede the period of Clubhead Acceleration.

Compare picture 10-23-B #3 with pictures 10-24-D #2 and 10-24-E #2.

To me, 10-23-B #2 shows a Snap Release on the Elbow Plane. 10-24-D #2 and 10-24-E #2 show Snap Releases on the Turned Shoulder Plane.

I have a problem with the straight line delivery path. I have never seen it in footage. None of the stroboscope like videos and images out there that show the hand path have anything close to a straight line. Some of them seem to have some variation - larger radius followed by a brief stretch with smaller radius, but never straight. And some of the hand paths seem to have a pretty even curve even among late releasers.

IMO the swing plane does not dictate how late the release can start, but slightly more overtaking can be produced on a steeper plane, especially if there is more PA#2 / less PA#3 involved.

I like to see good connection between pivot and hands during the release interval: A power package structure with enough structural integrity to be powered and driven by the shoulders and the straightening of the right elbow. A right forearm flying wedge that is well preserved, or at least a very quiet right wrist seems to be a good indicator. I do not see this connection fully intact in e.g. Garcia even though he clearly has a very late release. When the angle between the right forearm and the shaft becomes too acute, when there is too much motion in the right wrist, the power package structure gets weaker and more hand action is required.

Wouldn't a higher plane require less PA3, lower plane require more PA3?

Less PA3=shorter release interval, more pa3=longer release interval?

So a higher plane (e.g., TSP) would require later release, otherwise your sweet spot will be over plane (aka out to in). Lower plane (e.g., elbow plane) requires earlier release, otherwise your sweet spot will be under plane (aka in to out, plus fat gouging shots).

This is all about the relative distance/space of the hands, sweet spot and the ground to each other at impact.

Yes. Steeper/higher plane - more PA#2 and less PA#3. That's what I said, wasn't it?

Yes Bernt. I was concerned more with the release. More PA3, longer release interval, so earlier release. Snap release won't work.

Higher vs lower plane got to do with the grip, the PA3 angle on the L hand.

Daryl the elbow plane does not force u to release early the Turned shoulder plane doesnt force u to release late u have options u can do whatever u want at any angle u want go for it sky's the limit with tgm. This isn't an opinion you're just flat out wrong.

The simple misunderstanding here Is that just because the release interval is longer doesnt mean it isnt still a snap release, a release that waited til the last POSSIBLE moment to release the club. Its a matter of WHEN NOT WHERE like par71 told u; early, late or somewhere in between. Triggered by a deliberate manuever or an automatic procedure

Of course a deeper release is possible on the turned shoulder because there is less angle between the left arm and clubshaft(pa#3) which means when the third power accumulator essentially releases the clubhead travels a shorter distance in space so it doesn't take as long for things to get in line

For example consider the standard wrist action. Turning and rolling notice how the clubhead moves in a wider arc as u turn and roll with the grip in the fingers on the elbow plane. When the angle is less it moves a shorter distance I.e. shorter period of time to get in line

Imagine swinging a 20 foot long driver. You better believe you have to release that sooner than you would with a normal wedge

Bottom line

Length of the club effects the release interval and so does the number three accumulator angle

But it doesn't effect 'the when'

Plane angle does not determine when its released

I don't think we can use elbow plane with a small PA3, so elbow plane needs a big PA3. If we have a big PA3, the release interval for PA3 is longer. Which means we can't snap.

If we use snap release with big PA3, you will never square the face unless you're Hercules.

If we use a small PA3 for elbow plane, you would have to move your low point a lot forward and plane way right to make sweet spot on plane to the ball. So maybe you can snap with these in order to move low point forward and plane to the right? So would that make Daryl wrong?

Not trying to fuel the fire, just wondering.

Svsvincenzo,

I think we just have a different understanding of the term "Snap Release". Definitions.

I fully agree with you that Elbow Plane comes with a bigger PA3, and that more PA3 will require an earlier Release Point. I just believe that whatever latest Release Point that allows you to use on any chosen Plane is called Snap in TGM.

Ok. Isn't it that Random Sweep Release is where the Release Point is somewhere in Downstroke, while Snap Release is somewhere as late as possible but somewhere in Release?

No. Downstroke ends at the Release Point, Release starts at the Release Point (according to 8-8, 8-9 in the book).

Release
 

OK - All stop and take a deep breath.
Re-Read 7-18
The Release point, pully size, and #PA3/#PA2 travel is a result of hand position not "some plane" type.
High hands- small pulley - easier snap release
Low hands- large pulley- etc. etc. etc.

HB

Don't have the Yellow Book so can't cite the sections, but per Snap Release and Random Sweep Release definitions it's what I said.

Per the definition you cited, a Full Sweep Release would mean no Startdown and Downstroke phase/portion/stage at all. By Release I just meant the shaft parallel position. Am I using the terms correctly?

"10-24-B. NON-AUTOMATIC RANDOM SWEEP This procedure is identical with "A" above except that the deliberate manipulation of the Release (Non-Automatic Trigger) is delayed until some preselected point in the Downstroke is reached." (Emphasis/bolding supplied.)

"10-24-D. NON-AUTOMATIC SNAP RELEASE This procedure delays the Triggering of the Release for as long as possible and still allows sufficient time to execute the deliberate maneuvering of a Non-Automatic Trigger Type..."

So by reading them together, Random Sweep Release is somewhere in Downstroke where the Release Point is, while Snap Release is somewhere after Downstroke, which means somewhere during Release?

But hungry bear the low hands thing or high hands thing doesn't matter because again its not a matter of where its WHEN early late or somewhere in between.... can u have a snap release at a very flat plane? Of course u can all it means is that u waited til the last possible moment to release maximizing velocity

Bottom line is this

A release which moves through a large space in the smallest amount of time will produce the most velocity so a snap release on the turned shoulder plane will in fact produce a higher possible velocity than a snap releases on the elbow plane because of the requirement that the elbow plane must release at a point further away in relation to the ball and hands because of the larger #3 angle on the elbow plane but both planes u can release early late or somewhere in between u can have a snap release or a sweep release on any plane

Svsvincenzo,

What this means is: You accelerate the Hands (and that phase is called Downstroke) until your Hands reach some point that you preselected. So your Downstroke can cover a fairly short distance (a Random Sweep Release close to Full Sweep) or a fairly long distance (a Random Sweep Release close to Snap) or the longest possible distance (a Snap Release). When your Hands reach that preselected point you trigger the Release. That's when Downstroke ends and Release starts (as Sections of the stroke, Chapter 8 ).

Release in TGM is not the point when the shaft is parallel to the ground (or let's say it could occur at that point, but that is coincidental because where you release is up to you).

Incidentally, with a Full Sweep Release there is - technically speaking - no Downstroke Section (in TGM terms, Chapter 8 ) because there is no independent Hand Acceleration before Clubhead Acceleration.

Ok. Thanks Par for the patience...hehe

Whip,

If you use elbow plane and a big PA3, wouldn't that mean you have to release or move or roll the L flying wedge early, hence there's Clubhead Acceleration=Release already? So that, IMO, couldn't be defined as Snap Release as you're not trying to release as late as possible, you're trying to release as early as possible as a matter of fact?

Vincenzo it is an an easily misunderstood part of the book. The way you misunderstood it actually shows you understand the effect of a larger #3 acc angle. The part that's slightly confusing or could throw someone off is that he does say that the elbow plane must release sooner in relation to the ball than a turned shoulder plane. The elbow plane can still have a snap release equally its just the last possible release point is earlier than a last possible turned shoulder plane release. But it is still a snap release on the elbow plane it can still be releasd as late as POSSIBLE which is as u know limited to what the #3angle limits it to so yes a turned shoulder plane snap release can have more velocity than an elbow plane snap release but in either case a snap release means at the last moment POSSIBLE . Don't forget about the other planes.. a squared shoulder plane can have a deeper snap release than a turned shoulder plane snap release, even less #3acc angle, both still capable of snap release......the hands plane would have a bigger #3angle than elbow plane must be released even sooner, yet both still possible to snap release. Release point in the book doesn't mean st what point in relation to the ball but instead at what point in relation to its limit as governed by the #3acc. Is it as early as possible as late as POSSIBLE or somewhere in between that's all release point means